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Old December 20, 2012, 04:09 PM   #51
Sparks1957
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That said, arming teachers and other non-police in schools is an accident waiting to happen
Picher, what are you basing that statement on? Generalizations like that are, well, too general, and are usually wrong.

I'd wager that I am as proficient with firearms as many of our local police in my area.... and I'm a teacher.
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Old December 20, 2012, 04:22 PM   #52
JohnKSa
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What happens the first time a teacher is breaking up a fight and loses their carry piece?
Any responsible person carrying a handgun needs to take reasonable precautions to insure that their handgun stays where it needs to stay until they need to draw it. In my case, a good quality IWB holster, designed specifically to fit my gun is perfectly adequate. If I were in a situation where I thought I might have to break up a fight or otherwise get involved in vigorous activity, a retention holster might be a better option.

You do realize that police carry holstered firearms in situations where they might have to wrestle with a suspect? Retention holsters have been around a long time and they work very well.
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We were told that even if we get the chance to pick up a gun in a shooting situation not to, because when the police show up they will kill anyone who has a gun.
I recommend that you drop your gun when the police arrive. Again, this is not a new problem, nor is it one that is difficult to solve. In any armed self-defense situation, the police will likely arrive at some point to find an armed defender. The defender is advised to act prudently and to cooperate with the police at that point to avoid any misunderstandings from turning ugly.

It's worth pointing out that if you are still alive and armed when the police arrive after a mass shooting, that is GOOD outcome, and I'm not sure why someone would want to try to spin it to make it sound like it's bad.
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...the presence of armed folks may not deter.
I would go so far as to say it's unlikely to deter.

Having armed persons available to react rapidly is one possible way to keep a school shooting from turning into a mass murder. I seriously doubt it will stop school shootings.
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Old December 21, 2012, 09:06 AM   #53
Picher
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I've seen and recently heard of accidental shootings and realize that they wouldn't kill masses of people, but still have seen in the news and heard about other instances where people were injured or killed by gun accidents.

In the past week, a guy bought a handgun and "unloaded" it in his car by removing the magazine, then apparently dropped the hammer on a loaded chamber, shooting his son in the car, minutes after buying the gun.

In another incident in Maine, there were very "proficient" police firearms instructors examining a handgun behind the shooting line when it went off and shot the Sheriff.

My B-I-L, a very competent match handgun shooter and firearms instructor, in separate incidents, accidentally shot out his TV, a sliding glass door, a picture of Abe Lincoln, and a neighbor's dog. Before the dog incident, he had a concealed weapons permit.

I say we need to proceed cautiously when considering arming teachers. There are too many young kids around and if a teacher were to accidentally harm just one, it would be as devastating to that teacher and almost as devastating to the community as if there were a mass shooting.
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Old December 21, 2012, 09:37 AM   #54
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Why they don't have school shootings in Israel

I live in a suburb of Houston and through my church I know of a couple school teachers that have concealed permits and carry in school. They are fine people with children of their own with whom I share a pew every Sunday. I believe that they have nothing but goodwill towards their fellow men, they simply are aware that there are crazy peoiple out there and their students look to their teacher for instruction, advice and sometimes for protection.

Here's why they don't have school shootings in Israel.

Attached Images
File Type: jpg Israel.jpg (87.5 KB, 310 views)
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Old December 21, 2012, 12:47 PM   #55
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I say we need to proceed cautiously when considering arming teachers. There are too many young kids around and if a teacher were to accidentally harm just one, it would be as devastating to that teacher and almost as devastating to the community as if there were a mass shooting.
I say we need to proceed cautiously when considering disarming teachers. There are too many young kids around and if a teacher were to be unable to have effective defense tools and just one was harmed, it would be as devastating to that teacher and more devastating to the community than if there were an even more extremely rare accidental shooting.

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That said, arming teachers and other non-police in schools is an accident waiting to happen
Teachers throughout Utah have been allowed to be armed for several years now. Can you give me links to the "accidents" they've experienced there?
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Old December 21, 2012, 02:12 PM   #56
Glenn E. Meyer
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1. What empirical evidence is there that arming qualified teachers is more of an accident waiting to happen than having an armed guard? There is none.

2. There is a natural bias against hurting an innocent based on our emotional fast mental processes. However, your rational mind should make this calculation.

Gun man comes into a class and unopposed will kill 20 or 30. The brave teacher will be shot down in a futile charge. Yes, I know some tackles have worked but many don't.

Gun man comes into a class - armed qualified teacher engages. Will 20 or 30 kids be hit by friendly fire. Probably not. Let's say 2 get hit (a tragedy), 28 are saved. The moral onus is on the gun man and not the teacher that tried his or her best. That is especially the case, if the latter took the time to train and made a sincere effort to be prepared.
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Old December 21, 2012, 04:12 PM   #57
raimius
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a very competent match handgun shooter and firearms instructor, in separate incidents, accidentally shot out his TV, a sliding glass door, a picture of Abe Lincoln, and a neighbor's dog. Before the dog incident, he had a concealed weapons permit.
The first part of your description does not match the rest! If you've had not 1 but FOUR negligent discharges, I'd say your competence is very much in question.
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Old December 21, 2012, 05:00 PM   #58
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Gun man comes into a class - armed qualified teacher engages. Will 20 or 30 kids be hit by friendly fire. Probably not. Let's say 2 get hit (a tragedy), 28 are saved. The moral onus is on the gun man and not the teacher that tried his or her best. That is especially the case, if the latter took the time to train and made a sincere effort to be prepared.
Not to argue both sides, but I think that he was talking about an accidental (or negligent) discharge, rather than collateral damage in an actual defensive situation.

Regarding gun accidents in public, they are extremely rare - but not nonexistant - even if we just look at the public at large. That includes several shall-issue states where you can carry or get a concealed carry license with NO training whatsoever. Off the top of my head, these include Washington, Indiana, Pennsylvania, Vermont, Arizona, Alaska - and probably others. We just don't see many accidents in public or gun grabs.

If we used this as a starting point, and then asked whether there were some
"reasonable" training requirements that could/should be imposed, I'm with you.
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Old December 21, 2012, 05:43 PM   #59
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Why they don't have school shootings in Israel
That picture is showing up all over the web, but so far, I have yet to see a single instance of where the particular school is name or that the woman with the rifle is a teacher. I have found, however, claims that it is a school fieldtrip away from school and that the accompanying woman is a parent or possibly a security guard.

http://www.elephantjournal.com/2012/...-gun-violence/

http://www.charismamag.com/blogs/sta...teachers-armed

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/new...2/18/id/468245

http://jewishpreppers.com/2012/12/ar...eachers-armed/

I only know 2 folks who have lived in Israel in recent years and neither has seen teachers with firearms. Scanning the internet for images of Israeli teachers and there is a startling lack of images showing teachers with guns and those that purportedly show teachers with guns are like the image above that make the claim without any sort of identifying information/context and certainly nothing that can be verified.

Granted, there aren't many school schootings in Israel, but there are bombings, mortar, rocket, cannon, and missile attacks along with the occasional incursions from their neighbors in hopes of reclaiming territory.
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Old December 21, 2012, 06:39 PM   #60
jtmckinney
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Everyone, Thanks for a great job discussing this.

Picher, I would like to respond to your comment;
"I've seen and recently heard of accidental shootings and realize that they wouldn't kill masses of people, but still have seen in the news and heard about other instances where people were injured or killed by gun accidents."
And then;
"I say we need to proceed cautiously when considering arming teachers. There are too many young kids around and if a teacher were to accidentally harm just one, it would be as devastating to that teacher and almost as devastating to the community as if there were a mass shooting."

Accidental and negligent discharges do happen when firearms are being handled. They are rare but do happen. I have never heard of any modern firearm discharging when no one was pulling the trigger. For the discussion of arming teachers and school administrators who are capable of and volunteered for this duty I do not think this applies because the firearm would not be un-secured when students were in the building unless there was a situation that called for it.

Nowhere has it been suggested that this would proceed without caution. The articles I linked too talked about the process they went through before coming to the conclusion this was the best for their students.

Arming teachers and school administrators is being discussed. It was being discussed at the job site I was at in another state this week and at my workplace when I got back in the office today. I always try to bring this into the discussion when it is in the best interest to do so. You may have to listen to some things you do not want to hear first but if you want your opinion to be heard you have to be willing to listen to others.

Now is a time when it is very important for us to be good citizens as gun owners and belivers in the importance of the 2nd Amendment.

Again Thanks Everyone!
James
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