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Old December 16, 2012, 11:12 AM   #26
Sparks1957
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I'd consider them essentially irrelevant from any angle
True enough. I was thinking more that the whole psychological impact of having guns stored in schools would be different now, with the cultural shift. Students and most staff in most schools don't remember those days, and might see it quite differently than we did back then.
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Old December 16, 2012, 11:30 AM   #27
Brian Pfleuger
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Interestingly, I'm almost positive that those rifles are still there. If they're not, I don't know where they went. By law, they'd have to be auctioned off and I know that hasn't happened.

I doubt most people have any knowledge of them or give it any thought if they do.
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Old December 16, 2012, 11:36 AM   #28
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You may be right in your area of the country. Rifle teams disappeared from VT schools in the '70s.
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Old December 16, 2012, 11:47 AM   #29
Don H
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Big Bird PhD
General question regarding school grounds: Obviously public schools fall under all these laws, however, what if the elementary school was private? Could the principal or teachers have ccw's and carry (in theory) if the school board allowed it?
Mind you I'm not talking about Texas where it has more lax laws regarding this issue.
18 USC 922(q)(2)
(A)It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

(B)Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—

(iv)by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;

(v)by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;

Slightly off-topic but I think an important distinction in terminology:

lax
Adjective
1.Not sufficiently strict or severe.
2.Careless.

A more accurate term, without the above connotations, would be "less restrictive". One on-line dictionary defines "restrictive" as: "Imposing restrictions or limitations on someone's activities or freedom". Anti-RKBA groups often use the word "lax" in their rantings with all its negative connotations. Pro-RKBA folks should used less 'loaded' terminology with a more 'positive' aspect. We shouldn't, again and still, let the anti's define the playing field as we have with "high capacity magazine' and "assault weapon/rifle".
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Old December 16, 2012, 11:51 AM   #30
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Trying to hit a protected invader among a mass of students would probably not work.
Quote:
However, single shot, bolt action 22short rifles aren't exactly massacre or defensive arms. I'd consider them essentially irrelevant from any angle.
Either option would be preferable to having students waiting to see if the killer either runs out of bullets or gets tired of killing them ...... these cowards generally kill themselves at the first sign of opposition......

There are teachers/administrators at both the Elementary School and Jr./Sr. High School here that could, I think, do the necessary if one of these atrocties occurred here.
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Old December 16, 2012, 12:14 PM   #31
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Why a school?

I wonder if the school shootings and the theater in Colorado were chosen as targets because the shooter knew they were gun-free zones with little or no chance of resistance? Perhaps the thought that there might be armed resistance in some of these places might discourage potential shooters. I think armed school staff should be required to train with the police for such possible scenarios. It is a tragedy about the CT shooting for sure.

When I went to high school many of the students drove pickup trucks to school with loaded rifles and shotguns in gunracks in the back window and left the trucks unlocked with windows down. Nobody ever got shot and no guns were stolen. It wasn't an issue. It is a shame those days are gone forever.
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Old December 16, 2012, 12:25 PM   #32
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This has been discussed before. One of our members, Double Naught Spy has posted some pretty good breakdowns of deterrence and gun free zones.

The bottom line is that we have rampages in carry areas and even in places known to have a lot of guns. It depends on the motivation of the shooter. If they have a personal grudge against the location, deterrence may not be a factor. If they expect to die, it may not be a big factor.

We can't know the folks who didn't go here or there, if they didn't act. We have some cases where the target area was switched (because we caught the guy) due to armed presence.

Columbine had a cop, for instance. Tyler, Tacoma, Tucson, and others were 'gun places'.

No clean answer on this. The best one is that if you are armed and if an incident breaks out, depending on circumstances you may be able to to positively act. How to act is another giant debate.
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Old December 16, 2012, 01:14 PM   #33
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Response to comments.
My original posting concerning the Philippines said nothing about storage in the school. The weapons were "issued" to the individual teacher who carried it constantly.

A number of years ago I was considering getting my teaching certificate through the "troops to classroom" program. Most of the former SMs went to low performing schools.

I took a job as a private security guard assigned to a local High School to determine if I really wanted to teach. My concern was that management would not let me teach.

Security was abysmal.

The school was and open campus design which could not be secured.

The principle had no interest in security issues. Despite the fact that during my 6 month tenure two individuals entered the campus and attacked students. One student was hospitalized from the attack. Despite the severity of the assaults no charges were filed. A suspended student was allowed to enter the campus. He attempted to burn the Junior high school down. once again no charges.

The LEO assigned as school resource officer had basically been removed from patrol for failure to perform. She froze during a shoot out and screwed up during a number of lessor situations. My friends on the force told me that she could not be trusted in any situation. During one student fight she locked herself in her office and refused to respond.

My instructions were to get the students in a classroom and find a location to observe and report. The most effective defensive tool I had was a dry chemical fire extinguisher. The whole concept of my training is to protect and defend. I could not live with those instructions.

I hope this is not the general state of security in our schools but I fear it is.
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Old December 16, 2012, 02:06 PM   #34
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Quote:
I hope this is not the general state of security in our schools but I fear it is
I hate to tell you, but your experience is pretty typical of what you would find in most public schools.
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Old December 16, 2012, 02:12 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hal View Post
Looks like Michigan passed it and sent it to Gov to sign.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/201...uns-classroom/
Yes we did... However, in light of recent events, the Governor is going to "ponder" signing the bill in to law. I'm sure it will be signed...

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Old December 16, 2012, 05:37 PM   #36
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One more issue with teachers carrying:

What happens the first time a teacher is breaking up a fight and loses their carry piece?

I've had to break up a few fights, including some that went to the ground where I was trying to pull one kid off another, in that situation it would be all to easy to lose control of your carry piece. Now you have an armed student in a fight situation.

I know I"m raising a what if (and my dad always said that what if your aunt had balls she'd be your uncle) but in 4 years of teaching I"ve had to break up a half a dozen fights; some of which I had to get rather physical.

As for the rush to condescension regarding HCL, its stored in a locked, vented chemical locker in sealed glass containers. Is it a perfect solution? No. But I live in Washington state, and as such I cannot even bring a pocketknife to school with longer than a 3 inch blade. You have a better idea if an active shooter comes in?
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Old December 16, 2012, 05:54 PM   #37
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Yes, I've broken up plenty of fights over the years, and most have not required me to roll around on the floor with the kids. A good retention holster should do the trick and keep the gun out the wrong hands.

Perhaps you shouldn't be one of the teachers in your building to volunteer should this ever come to pass.

The acid is still a terrible idea. You have an obligation to keep your students safe, and throwing acid at an attacker will most certainly provoke them to attack more violently than they might have originally, with little guarantee of permanent harm to the attacker and a really good chance of harming others, especially with a fuming acid like HCl

I would still attempt to get my kids into a locked room away from windows, and if someone came in I would have to make a decision to give my life if necessary in an attempt to save theirs as I tried to disarm the attacker.

Last edited by Sparks1957; December 16, 2012 at 06:32 PM.
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Old December 16, 2012, 07:37 PM   #38
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Falcon642 ....Besides I teach science and I have gallons of hydrochloric acid in my classroom. My kids know that in the event of an active shooter, we lock the doors and fill beakers with acid.
Seriously??? With an active shooter situation you and your students are going to start filling beakers of acid.

Thats just plain silly.

Quote:
If the door opens, the person who opens it will get a beaker full of HCL in their face.
And if that person happens to be a police officer, fireman or another teacher?

I suppose a biology teacher will come along shortly and tell us how he's going to fling snakes and frogs at the first person who walks through the door.
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Old December 17, 2012, 09:56 AM   #39
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Let's drop the HCL discussion and move on, please.
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Old December 17, 2012, 10:56 AM   #40
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Thanks Glen E. Meyer I was also hoping that discussion would end.

When I started this thread I was hoping for information to share about other parts of the country that had simillar programs and how they went about getting them in place. Maybe also about how the local law enforcement was involved.

Maybe also here from communities where they had tried to impliment such a program and couldn't get it done. If this was even considered in my area I am not aware of it. Without the top school administrator being a champion for the cause maybe it couldn't happen.

This is a link to a follow up of the original article < http://blogs.star-telegram.com/crime...dy-counts.html > does include new information about their program, also some comments.
Most interesting to me was;
Quoted from the article: "For example, Thweatt said the so-called "guardian plan" is patterned after the Federal Air Marshal program, in which plain-clothes officers guard airline flights, but passengers are not supposed to know who they are, or that they’re armed."

Neither article included anything about the cost (in dollars) to the school district. I am thinking this would be the last line of defence for our school children and probably cost a lot less than other measures that have already failed if this measure comes into play.

Gotta go for now and make a living, I will check back in when I can.

Thanks to all those that replied!
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Old December 17, 2012, 01:13 PM   #41
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WA law is interesting...RCW 9.41.280 concerns weapons on school property, and contains these exemptions:

"(3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:

(a) Any student or employee of a private military academy when on the property of the academy;

(b) Any person engaged in military, law enforcement, or school district security activities. However, a person who is not a commissioned law enforcement officer and who provides school security services under the direction of a school administrator may not possess a device listed in subsection (1)(f) of this section unless he or she has successfully completed training in the use of such devices that is equivalent to the training received by commissioned law enforcement officers;

(c) Any person who is involved in a convention, showing, demonstration, lecture, or firearms safety course authorized by school authorities in which the firearms of collectors or instructors are handled or displayed;

(d) Any person while the person is participating in a firearms or air gun competition approved by the school or school district;...." (there are more)

It appears to me that all a teacher would need is to be assigned an aditional duty of "school security" and as long as that teacher did NOT possess an electric stun device ((1)(f) he/she would be fine.
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Old December 18, 2012, 01:05 PM   #42
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Armed teachers or school personnel is not what keeps the shooters away from the schools, it is the possibility that they will be armed. As it is now, they know everyone at the school is unarmed. If it was possible to have selected employees armed and it was known by the general public, I don't think the shooters would choose to attack a school where they knew they were in danger of having fire returned.
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Old December 18, 2012, 01:11 PM   #43
Glenn E. Meyer
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Once again - if the shooter has a targeted interest in the school, the presence of armed folks may not deter. We really don't know. However, at Columbine there was a known armed presence. The attack was supposedly bomb based (which failed) and the shooters planned for ambushing the arriving law with bombs.

At VT, there was a known campus police presence. Cho planned and did thwart their easy entrance.

The shooter knows that it will take several minutes for response and may plan around it. Given they expect to die - that's part of it for many.

However, having an armed person present - as in armed teachers as compared to a distant guard - you may be an immediate response or the next classroom can be defended.

I regard mitigating the incident as a stronger argument than deterring the shooters we see. They are emotional as compared to instrumental and death is part of the scenario.
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Old December 18, 2012, 02:54 PM   #44
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However, having an armed person present - as in armed teachers as compared to a distant guard - you may be an immediate response or the next classroom can be defended.
Indeed! And the other notion of a useful defense tool being kept in a "lockbox" in the principal's office is nothing more than a "feel-good" compromise being suggested.
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Old December 18, 2012, 05:23 PM   #45
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Interesting...Seems Va is looking at this as well...

Quote:
Originally Posted by hamptonroads.com
Speaking on the radio Tuesday, Gov. Bob McDonnell said he’s open to a discussion about school officials being armed in response to the school shooting massacre in Connecticut last week.

“If someone had been armed, there would have been an opportunity to stop the person from coming into the school,” the governor said according to a transcript of his monthly appearance on Washington-area station WTOP.
http://hamptonroads.com/2012/12/bob-...hool-officials

Last edited by Fishing_Cabin; December 18, 2012 at 05:41 PM.
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Old December 18, 2012, 05:41 PM   #46
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Michigan's governor has vetoed the CCW bill.

SOURCE

Quote:

CHICAGO – Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder on Tuesday vetoed a bill that would have permitted people to carry concealed weapons in public areas including hospitals, schools and daycare centers, the Wall Street Journal reports. Snyder, a Republican, bucked his own party, which had pushed the bill through the state legislature's lame-duck session last week. He told the newspaper that he was worried the bill might have forced various institutions to allow concealed weapons on site. His veto comes just days after 20-year-old Adam Lanza shot up a school in Newtown, Conn., leaving 26 people -- most of them young children -- dead before turning the gun on himself.

Copyright © 2012 MarketWatch, Inc.
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Old December 18, 2012, 06:15 PM   #47
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I am a HS teacher and I just had a conversation with our SRO today. He is not the type that was described earlier. I have no doubt that he would be a tremendous asset should we ever have an attack at our school. That said, he is only one man and may not be where needed, when needed. He also is absent much of the time due to training, court and other departmental duties.

He said that he would very much support the idea of developing a crisis response team within the school. Teachers with military, LE or just firearms experience could train with the Sheriff's dept. during the summer in 'active shooter drills'. They would coordinate with the SRO and be known to the administration and local LE.

I also agree with the earlier points about retention holsters and not physically breaking up fights when you are carrying.
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Old December 20, 2012, 11:24 AM   #48
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People who go into schools, etc., to kill kids and others are, in effect, terrorists! They often have no regard for their own safety, as evidenced by those who take their own lives afterwards. They are not rational and have no concern for those they shoot. They're like the Kamakazis of WWII, focused on inflicting as much damage they can before they're killed.

Preventing such acts is extremely difficult because they've had time to do considerable planning and time their events to achieve optimal results. That said, the weapons used may or may not be firearms, but even more damaging weapons, not to be discussed here for fear of planting seeds.

That said, arming teachers and other non-police in schools is an accident waiting to happen. More guns harm people and property unintentionally than anyone would imagine. I've seen, heard of, and had unintentional discharges.

That said, I am fully confident that I would never intentionally hurt any innocent person with a firearm. I've been trained and trained others in firearm safety and use, including police officers. However, I'm not so sure about YOU or anyone else! So, how can anyone else have confidence that I'm not going to cause a problem with a firearm? It's the same with countries who have, or want atomic bombs, but on a smaller scale.
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Old December 20, 2012, 01:23 PM   #49
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Quote:
People who go into schools, etc., to kill kids and others are, in effect, terrorists!
Nope, most really are not. Terrorism has spefic definitional parameters that do not fit most school shooter. Kamikazis don't fit those parameters either.

Terrorism is defined as...
Quote:
The unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property in order to coerce or intimidate a government or the civilian population in furtherance of political or social objectives.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/terrorism

What aspect of the school shootings do you feel is for the purpose of coercing government into some particular behavior?

Quote:
It's the same with countries who have, or want atomic bombs, but on a smaller scale.
That said, um, NO.
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Old December 20, 2012, 03:56 PM   #50
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That said, arming teachers and other non-police in schools is an accident waiting to happen. More guns harm people and property unintentionally than anyone would imagine. I've seen, heard of, and had unintentional discharges.
Why would carrying in a school be different than anywhere else? Are you opposed to non-police carrying guns in general?

If an armed school employee, in the course of taking out a killer, inadvertently hits a bystander, is this worse than having everyone in the room murdered for lack of any armed defense?
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