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Old December 20, 2012, 11:49 AM   #1
chasgrips45
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Firearm transfer question

Hi all, I have a Colt Python listed on gunbroker,at this time. I live in North Carolina. I gent in Virginia wants to trade his Colt Diamondback for my gun. I`ve wanted a Diamondback for a while I`m fortunate enough to have two Pythons. So the trade sounds fine to me.His gun is not listed on Gunbroker . I just thought we`d ship our guns to our respective FFLs . Of course we`d have to trust each other . Why not set up a buy it now auction . He would list his gun,Mine is already listed I`d "buy" his & he`d "buy" mine Let gunbroker make their fees .We`d have the protection of Gunbroker. Of course this would incur extra money for shipment via next day air. He`d like to take a ride to N.C ,that sounds ok to me ,but why would we need FFLs if he came here ? Two full adults trading . items. Any help or suggestions? Thanks, charlie
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Old December 20, 2012, 11:57 AM   #2
Davey
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I think an FFL would be needed because you are residents of different states.
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Old December 20, 2012, 12:06 PM   #3
chasgrips45
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OK but what will the FFL do? we`ll fill out our respective 4473s?
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Old December 20, 2012, 12:30 PM   #4
Frank Ettin
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Under federal law, in the OP's trade each handgun would need to be transferred to the transferee by an FFL in the transferee's State of residence. So the gun the OP is trading (the Python) would need to be shipped to a cooperating FFL in Virginia, and the Diamondback going to the OP would have to be shipped to a cooperating FFL in North Carolina.

Here's the whole federal law story on interstate transfers of firearms (not including the rules for those with Curio and Relic licenses and the subject of dual residency):

[1] Under federal law, any transfer (with a few, narrow exceptions, e. g., by bequest under a will) from a resident of one State to a resident of another must be through an FFL. The transfer must comply with all the requirements of the State in which the transfer is being done as well as all federal formalities (e. g., completion of a 4473, etc.).

[2] In the case of handguns, it must be an FFL in the transferee's State of residence. You may obtain a handgun in a State other than your State of residence, BUT it must be shipped by the transferor to an FFL in your State of residence to transfer the handgun to you.

[3] In the case of long guns, it may be any FFL as long as (1) the long gun is legal in the transferee's State of residence; and (2) the transfer complies with the laws of the State in which it takes place; and (3) the transfer complies with the law of the transferee's State of residence.

[4] In connection with the transfer of a long gun, some FFLs will not want to handle the transfer to a resident of another State, because they may be uncertain about the laws of that State. And if the transferee resides in some States (e. g., California), the laws of the State may be such that an out-of-state FFL will not be able to conduct a transfer that complies.

[5] There are no exceptions under the applicable federal laws for gifts, whether between relatives or otherwise, nor is there any exception for transactions between relatives.

[6] The relevant federal laws may be found at: 18 USC 922(a)(3); 18 USC 922(a)(5); and 18 USC 922(b)(3).

Here's what the statutes say:
Quote:
18 U.S.C. 922. Unlawful acts

(a) It shall be unlawful—
...

(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph
(A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State,

(B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;
...

(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and

(B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;
....

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver --
...

(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee's place of business is located, except that this paragraph
(A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and

(B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;
...
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Old December 20, 2012, 12:58 PM   #5
DaleA
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Thank you Frank for quoting chapter and verse and putting it in terms even I can understand.

Once again the folks on TFL come through with the facts.
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Old December 20, 2012, 01:13 PM   #6
chasgrips45
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Frank You`re a genius ; but knew all of that!!!!!!!So So, by chance I was right. I tild Mr Diamondback that he`d need to send his gun to my FFL I would do vice verse, correct? The FFLs if they want ,can ship the guns to each other. The other thing he could do (we`ve been doing this since the beginning of civilation) is just come here give me his gun & i give him mine So simple ,& you get to BS with the guy that traded your gun,,,,, it just seems so simple. here trust would need to come into play . I have no real problem trusting someone else,maybe because I spent many years in USAF. Seems so simple.
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Old December 20, 2012, 02:25 PM   #7
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Quote:
The other thing he could do (we`ve been doing this since the beginning of civilation) is just come here give me his gun & i give him mine So simple ,& you get to BS with the guy that traded your gun,,,,, it just seems so simple. here trust would need to come into play .
A federal crime would also come into play. It's a stupid law, but it's the law.
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Old December 20, 2012, 03:12 PM   #8
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chasgrips45
...The other thing he could do (we`ve been doing this since the beginning of civilation) is just come here give me his gun & i give him mine So simple ,& you get to BS with the guy that traded your gun,,,,, it just seems so simple. here trust would need to come into play....
If you do that, each of you will be committing a federal felony punishable by up to five years in federal prison and/or a fine (and of course an associated lifetime loss of gun rights).

Note also that it is never acceptable on TFL to suggest that violating the law would be an appropriate way to deal with a situation.
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Old December 20, 2012, 05:46 PM   #9
chasgrips45
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I didnt mean thatI would do that Mr Ettin.I was just reflecting on how simple it used to be.In the 50s & 60s That`s all . At 67, I really don`t think i need to be chastised by you . If you need me to discuss this error in judgement on my part ,we`ll either by IM or phone. I`m really offended by your remarks, you provided some very interesting info. That`s all i need .

Last edited by chasgrips45; December 20, 2012 at 05:57 PM.
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Old December 20, 2012, 07:49 PM   #10
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chasgrips45
...I was just reflecting on how simple it used to be.In the 50s & 60s That`s all...
Thank you for the clarification. However, your exact words were:
Quote:
Originally Posted by chasgrips45
...The other thing he could do...
That can certainly be read as suggesting doing the transaction in a manner that violates federal interstate firearm transfer laws was considered an option.

In any case, it was my purpose to make absolutely sure that everyone reading this thread clearly understands (1) that residents of different States meeting to trade firearms face-to-face would be a serious violation of federal law; and (2) that it's never acceptable on TFL to suggest violating the law. I'm sorry that you chose to take that personally and be offended.
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Old December 20, 2012, 11:28 PM   #11
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chasgrips45
At 67, I really don`t think i need to be chastised by you .
I'm 69 and Frank chastises me periodically. Unfortunately (for my ego) he's generally right when he does so. This forum is about communication, and IMHO the burden of clear communication lies at least 90 percent on the author. If we write something that can be read multiple ways, is the reader to blame for reading it in the way we DIDN'T intend?
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Old December 20, 2012, 11:58 PM   #12
dogtown tom
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Quote:
chasgrips45 .....At 67, I really don`t think i need to be chastised by you....
When you suggest that someone commit a Federal crime you NEED to be chastized.

This ain't 1960.
It's been Federal law since 1968.
Your age is immaterial.
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Old December 21, 2012, 02:54 PM   #13
JimDandy
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If I read that right, one of you could open a business in the state of the other, and then transfer legally. IF I read that right. Of course, the cost of opening a business, and the time involved probably is more work than just using an FFL.


Edit: Then again, as I re-read that I don't see anything about a place of business equating with a residence like I thought I had before. I must be mixing something up, or missing it in a second reading.
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