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Old December 15, 2012, 07:10 PM   #26
youngunz4life
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my opinion, reading into it too much
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Old December 15, 2012, 08:10 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavy Metal 1
...Only because the federal law is out of step with contemporary society.

The last time I filled out a 4473 I thought it was the most ridiculous thing I have seen. In the opinion of the gov't if you are a user of marijuana you are a menace to society, however you could be a raging alcoholic (a TRUE drug addict) and it is still ok to fill out the 4473 and get your gun.
Completely irrelevant.

The law on this is what it is. Your opinion as to whether the law is good or bad or off base doesn't matter. The OP wasn't asking about how people think things should be. The OP was asking about possible complication under existing law of the state law legal use of marijuana under certain circumstance.

If you think the laws should be different from what they are, our systems offers you a number of ways to try to change the law. But opinions about whether these laws are right or wrong are off topic for this thread.
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Old December 15, 2012, 08:26 PM   #28
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Smoke some weed, drive a car a few days later, & get into a car accident a couple of days later involving fatalities...get sentenced to SEVEN freaking years in prison...

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...y-jody-gleason

Seriously folks, JUST SAY NO. . . Even if it is legal in your State, you shoot someone in SD and it comes out that you'd smoked weed a couple of days ago, some gung-ho federal prosecutor wanting to make a name for themselves will try to nail you to the wall. If I were a federal prosecutor, I definitely would be doing this in those States that have legalized weed. It's ain't about right & wrong. It's about politics and the dollars in my paycheck.
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Old December 15, 2012, 08:58 PM   #29
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from Onward's post and tag line:


It's ain't about right & wrong. It's about politics and the dollars in my paycheck.
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Somewhat of an incongruency don't you think?
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Old December 15, 2012, 09:23 PM   #30
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sorry if I drifted a bit OT; no hijack intended.
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Old December 15, 2012, 09:41 PM   #31
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Quote:
Heavy Metal 1
from Onward's post and tag line:
It's ain't about right & wrong. It's about politics and the dollars in my paycheck.
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Somewhat of an incongruency don't you think?
Yup, you're right. Life is a bunch of dichotomies.

At least, I admit to it rather than some of these other jokers that sing the self-righteous tune. If something I do is part of my legal job description and it so happens to propel my career, so be it. Would I do something illegal to move my career forward? No. Would having my career move forward drive me to prosecute harder while staying within the confines of the law? Of course! It happens every freaking day. Anyone who doesn't believe that is a foolish idealist.

So, going back to the topic - don't freakin smoke weed if you're gonna carry or think you may shoot somebody in self-defense. Pretty dang easy, eh?
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Old December 17, 2012, 08:55 AM   #32
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I'll put this out there for consideration. If I were on a jury and evidence was presented that the person who shot someone in self-defense (outside of his home) had marijuana in his system, it is not something that I could dismiss or ignore. Having known a number of people who's judgment has been altered by habitual marijuana use, I have a strong prejudice associated with the use of this drug. Marijuana is not the same as alcohol and it not at all harmless compared to alcohol either. From my point of view, people who are regular marijuana users have a very skewed perception of reality. I've argued this point with many marijuana users - and whether you think I'm right or wrong doesn't really matter if someone like me happens to make it on a self-defense case jury.
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Old December 17, 2012, 09:21 AM   #33
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There are at least two specific elemental compounds of THC that can be tested in the blood. The traditional urine tests detect the total including that which is stored "long term" in fat cells. THC/Creatine ratios are able to detect more recent use. The specific tests that are to be used in WA for DUI[M] will test specifically for the THC compound that relates to "current" use and isolate it from the "fat stored" compound.

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Old December 17, 2012, 09:45 AM   #34
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Ever had to physically subdue a drunk? It can get pretty wild, even dangerous.
Ever had to subdue a marijuana user? Me neither.
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Old December 17, 2012, 09:53 AM   #35
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So, Skans, what if all the factors indicate the self defense shoot was justified? Would you vote for manslaughter just because the shooter had legally used cannabis at some time in the past? Would you vote the same way if the shooter was an alcoholic? In the case of Colorado and Washington both substances would be equal, legally speaking.
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Old December 17, 2012, 01:48 PM   #36
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So, Skans, what if all the factors indicate the self defense shoot was justified?

If all factors indicated the shooting was justified, I'd probably vote to acquit - but the fact that the defendant had drugs in his system at the time of the shooting would be a relevant factor for me to have to consider.

Would you vote for manslaughter just because the shooter had legally used cannabis at some time in the past?

At some distant time in the past? No, it wouldn't be a factor for me. But, if blood testing showed recent use, it would definitely be a factor for me. My experience with heavy pot smokers is that they have a very skewed perception of reality.

Would you vote the same way if the shooter was an alcoholic?

Recent use of alcohol would also lead me to believe that the shooter's judgment was impaired.
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Old December 17, 2012, 10:52 PM   #37
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For those out there who would vote to skewer the cannabis user even if his shot was totally justified how would you feel if the shot was to save the life of someone you love or if it was to save you? Yes, yes, I know you would not be on the jury, but would it alter how you feel about the case? Do you think he should still be imprisoned?

food for thought
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Old December 17, 2012, 11:06 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavy Metal 1
For those out there who would vote to skewer the cannabis user even if his shot was totally justified...
You completely miss and misunderstand the point, and it's the same point with alcohol or any other substance that can impair one's perception or judgment.

The possibility of impaired perception and judgment will call into question whether the defendant's use of lethal force was justified. The possibility of impaired preception and judgment will call into question whether the defendant reasonably understood the situation and reasonably concluded that lethal force was necessary.

If a jury decides that the defendant was under the influence of a perception and judgment impairing substance, the jury might well conclude that the defendant misjudged the situation and used lethal force when it was not necessary. In that case the shot would not have been justified.
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Old December 18, 2012, 12:00 AM   #39
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No, you miss the point I'm trying to make. What if the shot WAS justified? The guy didn't misjudge the situation, didn't act impulsivly or imprudently in any way. Beyond the shadow of a doubt the shoot was good. We're only throwing in the weed as an "extra" hypothetical. Would that change your feeling? Again what if it was YOU that was saved by the shoot, would you still want the guy hung out to dry ONLY because of his indulgence in an herb?

In other words you were all set to vote that this was a proper use of lethal force then somehow you found out the guy was a user of cannabis. Be honest now.
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Old December 18, 2012, 12:08 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavy Metal 1
...What if the shot WAS justified? ...Beyond the shadow of a doubt the shoot was good...
If his use of lethal force was beyond a doubt justified, he wouldn't be on trial. He would be on trial only if there was a question as to whether he was justified, and that question would need to be answered by a jury.
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Old December 18, 2012, 05:51 AM   #41
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So,without making any value judgement on marijuana itself(frankly,because my opinion just does not matter)

These posts have determined:

That a medical marijuana prescription card documents you as (federally) unlawful user of a controlled substance.That is part of you medical records,which will soon be in a Federal database.

If you sign and swear,at the same time,that you are not an unlawful user on your 4473 form,you have provided documentation you are guilty of a felony(lying on the 4473)

If you look at similar topic in legal and civil rights,you will see text of the law as written that clearly states a bad drug test is evidence you made a false statement on your 4473.

Per Federal law,if you are in possesion of a firearm and a controlled substance at the same time,it is another felony.I do not know how that works out with being in posession of a firearm while drug testing positive,but it would not surprise me if it is unlawful.

OK,so if you fill out your 4473,swear you do not use,are involved in a SD shoot,you can already be charged with a felony for a false statement on your 4473 if you drug test positive.
That is pretty good evidence you lie in a sworn statement.How is that for your credibility on the stand?Suppose a prosecutor might exploit that?

Now,you have a gun,you fail a drug test,you are involved in a shooting,what are the odds there will be a search warrant for controlled substances at your residence?AAh,still a federal violation to have guns and drugs,another felony charge...How is your self defense program working out?

Last edited by HiBC; December 18, 2012 at 05:59 AM.
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Old December 18, 2012, 08:43 AM   #42
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My bottom line is this - anyone who is going to have and shoot guns should keep all illegal drugs out of their lives - no exceptions (even pot and "medically prescribed" pot), and abstain from alcohol and any legal drugs that can possibly impair your reflexes or judgment, whenever that person is going have a gun on his person or be around guns, like hunting and shooting at the range.

That's just the rule that I live by and expect others to live by - right or wrong makes no difference to me.
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Old December 18, 2012, 09:23 AM   #43
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Doctor said my statin cholesterol meds could cause light headedness or fuzziness. He said it's a known side -effect. I think we should test for statins, too. Where I come from, a drug influenced shooting is a drug influenced shooting!

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Old December 18, 2012, 09:34 AM   #44
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It seems obvious to me, that real time tests that can gauge the approximate time of consumption are the only logical solution. Just determining that someone used marijuana(illegal, or not) in the last 30 days or so, doesn't pass the smell test when it comes to determining impairment at the time of a recent event.

Unlike others in this thread, I don't believe the Federal Justice Department will spend the time and funds to go after individual users, especially in states that have decriminalized it. President Obama has said as much. He said that the law is the law though and those who operate on a large scale will still be prosecuted. So we may see some fireworks on that front, if and when big growers/distributors in Colorado, or Oregon are prosecuted.
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Old December 18, 2012, 09:37 AM   #45
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The last posts by Skans and Gott are something I agree with and live by myself. Prescription drugs can reak havoc with judgement for sure. It is best that one keep oneself as pure as possible. It was indeed a lively discussion of the hypotheticals.

One more bent on the hypothetical side that HiBC brings up about the 4473 & illegal drugs (I think the form only lists marijuana, I haven't filled out a 4473 in a long time so I do not recall), what if at the time a person fills out the 4473 they do not use cannabis; it's just not part of their life and then say some years later they get hurt real bad or get MS or something and their Dr. prescribes medical MJ and they use it then? No concurrent use of guns and mj, they still have the guns, but may never shoot them again. Any lawyers on the forum care to comment?
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Old December 18, 2012, 09:58 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nate45
...I don't believe the Federal Justice Department will spend the time and funds to go after individual users, especially in states that have decriminalized it. President Obama has said as much...
I believe that is the current federal policy with regard to the federally unlawful, individual use of marijuana. But I see no reason to believe that policy extends to the weapons violations -- being a prohibited person in possession of a gun and/or making a false statement on a 4473.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavy Metal 1
...Dr. prescribes medical MJ and they use it then? No concurrent use of guns and mj, they still have the guns, but may never shoot them again. Any lawyers on the forum care to comment?
If someone in that position retains possession of his guns, he is in violation of 18 USC 922(g)(3) by possessing a gun while being an unlawful user of a controlled substance.

First, under the Controlled Substances Act, marijuana is a Schedule I controlled substance. That means that under federal law it may not be lawfully used or prescribed. So anyone using marijuana is an unlawful user of a controlled substance.

Second, here's how the applicable federal regulation defines "unlawful user" (27 CFR 478.11):
Quote:
Unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance. A person who uses a controlled substance and has lost the power of self-control with reference to the use of controlled substance; and any person who is a current user of a controlled substance in a manner other than as prescribed by a licensed physician. Such use is not limited to the use of drugs on a particular day, or within a matter of days or weeks before, but rather that the unlawful use has occurred recently enough to indicate that the individual is actively engaged in such conduct. A person may be an unlawful current user of a controlled substance even though the substance is not being used at the precise time the person seeks to acquire a firearm or receives or possesses a firearm. An inference of current use may be drawn from evidence of a recent use or possession of a controlled substance or a pattern of use or possession that reasonably covers the present time, e.g., a conviction for use or possession of a controlled substance within the past year; multiple arrests for such offenses within the past 5 years if the most recent arrest occurred within the past year; or persons found through a drug test to use a controlled substance unlawfully, provided that the test was administered within the past year....
Third, under 18 USC 922(g)(3):
Quote:
(g) It shall be unlawful for any person—

....

(3) who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802));

...

to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.
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Old December 18, 2012, 10:01 AM   #47
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Quote:
then say some years later they get hurt real bad or get MS or something and their Dr. prescribes medical MJ and they use it then? No concurrent use of guns and mj, they still have the guns, but may never shoot them again. Any lawyers on the forum care to comment?
My comment is you sound like you're trying to rationalize smoking dope and carrying concealed.

Re your question, the 4473 questions are present tense. "Are you buying.." etc. What, years later you want to go back to the dealer's store and say, "I've got to change one of my answers. I recently started smoking dope."

Seriously, in a self-defense scenario things get chaotic and screwed up in a hurry. Maybe the shooter acted in self-defense. Maybe the DA isn't going to file charges. But maybe the perp's family knows the shooter smokes dope and decides to file a suit. It all comes down to who has the best lawyer.

It's not worth the risk. People say alcohol is so much worse than dope. I don't know one way or the other. But my understanding is the human body metabolizes alcohol much faster than dope. Pot stays in the system for what, a month? If I were on a jury and the defendant had dope in his system and maybe the case was not absolutely clear cut, etc.
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Old December 18, 2012, 08:23 PM   #48
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Quote:
My bottom line is this - anyone who is going to have and shoot guns should keep all illegal drugs out of their lives - no exceptions (even pot and "medically prescribed" pot), and abstain from alcohol and any legal drugs that can possibly impair your reflexes or judgment, whenever that person is going have a gun on his person or be around guns, like hunting and shooting at the range.

That's just the rule that I live by and expect others to live by - right or wrong makes no difference to me.
While your expectations are honorable, I can assure they are not honored. Would you care to guess how many LEO's are out there doing their job everyday that are prescribed some form of mind altering drug... I happen to personally know more then just a few. Some on pain killers, some downers and yet still others on uppers.
And yes some prescribed by the dept. shrink.

Hell, far as that goes, when one of our bigger local cities instilled an ordnance of 'no smoking in city vehicles', almost half the police dept. was on Welbutrin(sp) prescribed by their Drs. to help them quit smoking. Welbutrin is mind altering and was developed as an anti depressant to be prescribed by physicians for depression but has been also known to help people quit smoking.

Last edited by shortwave; December 18, 2012 at 08:37 PM.
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Old December 18, 2012, 09:59 PM   #49
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To Foghorn, let me be clear: I am not trying to rationalize anything. I do not use marijuana. Heck I'll pee in a jar for you to test I've got enough with my allergies without adding something else for my body to deal with. My question is posed as a hypothetical regarding timelines of 4437 application and subsequent use of drugs again by the hypothetical person. I feel Frank Ettin has cleared that up by his description.

At one phase in my career I worked on a Alcohol and Other Drug unit. With that experience I have come to know about chemicals affecting human beings somewhat moreso than the average Joe. I was absolutley amazed by the number of alcoholic cops we treated. That was spooky because they are more likely to get into a situation where they had to use a gun than the rest of us.
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Old December 19, 2012, 02:29 PM   #50
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I recall a case in my town where 4 people confronted one person in a park.The lone person ran.He was caught,knocked down,and was taking a beating.He pulled out his folding Buck knife and killed one of them.He was sentenced to five years,in the words of the DA"He brought a knife to a fist fight"

How does Eric Holder,our AG,feel about guns?Do you think he would pursue a SD shooting with "fairness" in mind?

Think about a certain high profile shoot where an unarmed man was beating an armed man on the ground.I know the unarmed guy who died had MJ in his tox report because the press made a big deal of it.

To the folks who think this is about coming down on the pot smoker,no.I'm the OP.I know a lot of young people.A lot of them smoke pot.Occasionally,they offer to share.I politely decline,explaining it would compromize my Second Ammendment Rights,and I have made a choice.

A large percentage of younger folks use pot to some degree.I hate to see those folks throw the Second Ammendment away.Over time,that weakens the 2nd.

I do not trust the soft touch on prosecution.Discretionary enforcement is a trap.I smell rat.Medpot cards,or go to the Recreational Pot Store,show driver's liscence,a barcode and Visa transaction.A whole lot of data mining quietly goes on every day.

Right now,Biden and Holder will be on a commission to reduce gun violence...could be,over time,just like the folks with a domestic violence history,or even deadbeat dads,you go for a background check and it will come back"This person made 9 MJ transactions last year.Denied"This person has a Medpot card denied.Apply for a hunting liscence,denied...

Maybe,it won't happen...you can trust politicians with your freedom,unless you want a 24 oz Coke in NYC

I don't know.It is your 2nd Ammendment right.Treat it how you want to,but if mixing controlled substances and firearms bites you,please do not whine.
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