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Old December 13, 2012, 09:24 PM   #26
Edward429451
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Just because they happen to be a cop or military means nothing. The're just guys. In fact it could mean that since guns are associated with their "job", there may some contemp from them towards guns, or the law associated with them.

Play it smart and get your info from a specialist. (Lawyer or enthusiast).
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Old December 13, 2012, 09:49 PM   #27
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Many/most cops(specially in urban areas) are not gun guys. They know little more than what is required to pass qualification with the issued firearm. Same with many military personel although they may have experience with more exotic applications.
I have military experience(precision rifle applications) but little of the rattattattat. Some military types with much more shootem up trigger time still come to me for firearms advice simply because they only know about what their unit is issued.
Cops are notoriously poor advisors pertaining to legal issues.
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Old December 14, 2012, 04:56 AM   #28
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I agree that some bad advice can be given even by LEO or Military/Ex-Military guys. There are plenty of LEO's who don't even know some of their local laws or don't shoot as much as civilian firearm enthusiasts do.

Their experience and background is always good, but it takes more than that to be proficient and knowledgable with firearms. Continuing training and education is important too, along with lots of practice.

I have a good friend who is a Veteran Marine and is now a Deputy. Everytime I go to the range and invite him to go, he usually turns me down even if he gets a discount or shoot for free because he's a LEO. And he's not even up to date with my state's CCW laws as much as I am, and hes a cop!
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Old December 14, 2012, 07:39 AM   #29
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As an LEO I have to agree. First, all officers (at least in my state) are competent with their firearms. That said, many of my fellow officers are not “gun guys.” Most officers are not armorers or firearms instructors. While they do qualify with their duty handguns every year, for some it’s simply not their hobby. A couple guys on my department are car guys, and why not? Another important skill an LEO must possess in enhanced driving skills. There are many facets to law enforcement that officers can be interested in other than guns. A few departments I know of have AR-15s in all their squad cars. Some officers personally own AR-15s and know quite a bit about them, others work to learn the platform and become very competent, while some only take the time to learn the basic operation of the gun and get other officers to clean their rifles. There is a reason most departments issue Glocks, and that is because they are simple to operate and easy to maintain.


I have worked in other occupational areas such as retail and utility services before getting into law enforcement. There is definitely more interest in firearms among LEOs than grocery store clerks or gas & water pipe layers. Let us not forget that terms like “expert” and “knowledge” can be very relative. Compared to your average person an LEO is likely to know more about guns than most people. However, it is not uncommon for a civilian to know much more about guns than LEOs. I would guess that a good majority of the LEOs I know personally own firearms; a little under half have a more than average interest in firearms; and about 15-25% could be considered firearm enthusiasts (relative term).


In closing, I would advise using the same level of skepticism on gun info from a random LEO as I would from any stranger in a gun store. Some really know their stuff, while others are talking out of their asses.
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Old December 14, 2012, 11:52 AM   #30
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I have to agree with DRail and Departed

Most service types and LEOs are trained with their service or issue weapons and little else. And what seems to me as minimal levels of training for the most part.

For instance, I was in the Marine Corps in the long ago. In advanced training, I received about two hours of 'training' with the M1911A1 pistol. Most of it was 'keep the muzzle down range' in various colorful language, the next popular subject was how hard the thing kicked and how inaccurate it was; and I think they devoted ten minutes or so to lining up the sights. Then we were directed to the firing line where the pistols were on the bench waiting for us - we didn't walk with them in our hands at all - and I think three pre-loaded magazines with five rounds each. Shoot the ammo and get off the range.

I left a M1911A1 pistol at home when I enlisted and had some idea of how to work it. I was the one eyed man in the land of the blind.

Same with the rifle. We were more seriously trained with the rifle (an M14 in my case). We were 'exposed', or 'familiarization fire' to M60 machineguns and 3.5 inch rocket launchers and LAAW rocket launchers. Very limited.

I went to the Border Patrol Academy and received some fairly serious training on shooting the issue revolver. But it was the revolver only, and only basic marksmanship training. A small amount of 'decision' shooting' on an indoor range with plastic bullets (ten minutes of practical exercise) and a night shoot. It wasn't 'bad', but it was brief. Also some explanation of and fifty or so rounds of shotgun shooting.

Same with U. S. Customs. Good basic instruction, but no depth and nothing about tactics or gunfighting. And ONLY with the issue weapon.

Most of the people with whom I worked could qualify, clean and operate (more or less safely) their issue sidearm. However, with something foreign to them - a model 94 Winchester, for instance - and a box of ammo, most would use the rifle as a club and some few would figure out how to single load it. Perhaps a minority would figure out how to load it. (The lever is pretty obvious.) But only those who knew about them from their private study would be comfortable and have any degree of confidence.

I've been a firearms enthusiast all my life. I've read many books by shooters about shooting. Many of those people had different ideas about how to do things. Some of them had specialties. Most of them have their own particular axe to grind.

I own a fair number of firearms now. I've shot all but a few antiques. And two or three times a week I see something on one of the firearms forums I've NEVER seen! And to be honest, I no longer keep up with 'new' guns. So - just for the tally book - I have my limits.

My suggestion is to research any question of firearms, ammunition or tactics and read several different 'sources'. There is more than one way to accomplish a task, and one size does not fit all.

Except for self defense, a solid hit with a big caliber beats a solid hit with a smaller caliber. Trust me, I'm an expert.
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Old December 14, 2012, 08:01 PM   #31
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It depends on the individual.

Quote:
You can be pretty sure that a submariner can give you a competent explanation of what "Rig for Dive" means
Well maybe. I get your point and in general agree. Being in the military can mean alot of things and not necessarily "Firearms Expert".
But it depends on the individual as much as MOS. I know SEAL's that aren't gun people (not saying their not Good at what they do, just not all are gun enthusiast).
As for the bubble head above. Maybe he is a gun guy, shoots competitively, attends the Nationals for Service Rifle, and is on the PRP program (Personal Reliability i.e. Reaction Force that guards nukes).

My point is, it depends on the individual more than job title. Military, Law Enforcement or Convenience Store owner.
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Old December 14, 2012, 08:38 PM   #32
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Sure, there are many current and former military/law enforcement personnel who have received advanced training and are also well-versed in civilian firearms. But there are also a lot of those who don't have advanced training and haven't studied up on civilian firearms at all, yet present themselves as firearms experts just because of their military/law enforcement experience.
I agree.

Let me tell where I sit before I tell you where I stand ... I am retired L.E. and cops today are less knowledgeable in firearms than the Old Breed. There is a small group in every department who are well versed in the subject, but they seek further knowledge and take extra training, and do their own research and practice. I competed in the World Police and Fire Games, and this group of cops is very skilled and knowledgeable in the gun world.

A lot of the new hires are folks who never fired a gun, been in a fight, or experienced marriage or a domestic dispute!
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Old December 14, 2012, 08:44 PM   #33
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Bad advice from military/law enforcement...

I've been in the military as an NCO and have had casual dealings with law enforcement. I trust neither the competence of the military nor the integrity of law enforcement.
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Old December 14, 2012, 09:16 PM   #34
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Yep, I have shot real bullets exactly ONCE in the past 6 years for military qualification.

(I feel that is a travesty, and found ways to do a LOT more than that, but 40rds in basic was the last time I was required to fire anything tougher than simunitions.)
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Old December 14, 2012, 09:54 PM   #35
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There is the issue of "my cousin's friend said X" and then there is the issue of the police officer/military guy not knowing their X from a hole in the ground.

I had a bud (real story, I was there) who went to a guy from the SF group on post to put a scope on his hunting rifle. He couldn't figure out why he couldn't get it sighted in. The SF guy had mounted it sideways. Just because someone is SF, Ranger, DELTA, Boy Scouts, or a SEAL doesn't mean they are a weapons expert. Yes, some are the finest in the world, but not all. There are also medics, commo, intel, log, engineer, and many other fields in that world.

We had a young man with us on my last deployment who NEVER left the laundry room for his 15mn tour. I tried many times to get him out of the wire with my patrol, however, he fought to not go. He is a combat vet now. I would not advice someone to take weapons training from him.

Same for police. Many don't like weapons and rarely shoot.

You have to be an educated consumer of info. If it sounds too good to be true (or like crap) odds are it is.

A police or military member who is into weapons and has been there/done that may be a great trainer. However, that does not make all of them so.
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Old December 14, 2012, 10:06 PM   #36
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Theo and Oldgrump summarized the issue quite nicely. Some military and some LEOs are very knowledgeable and competent with firearms. Many, maybe most, are not. Having spent 12 yrs on military active duty, I can attest that most of my competence came from 4 yrs on Navy 4th Naval District pistol team, and my own off-duty practice and experience. When I shoot beside local Maryland LEOs (and in the past PA and NJ LEOs) I am unfortunately generally not impressed by them. Read the recent NY Times article about the NYPD (an organization I worked for for four years) limited training and the results. I will never credit an opinion based on the credentials that "I was in the military..." or "I am/was an LEO..." without other evidence that the individual is competent.
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Old December 15, 2012, 01:47 AM   #37
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Like ya'll said above, some will say this will work in that. Be safe & do your research before you commit.
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Old December 15, 2012, 09:07 PM   #38
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I dont know about advive from LEO/military. I suppose the LEO gives advice on what hed like/or what he thinks the law should be..

I do know that on these forums advice is freely given.

I have even noticed successive posts giving advice that is 180 to each other. I usulally post at that time that

"one of you must be wrong."!!!!!
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Old December 15, 2012, 10:07 PM   #39
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For instance, I was in the Marine Corps in the long ago. In advanced training, I received about two hours of 'training' with the M1911A1 pistol. Most of it was 'keep the muzzle down range' in various colorful language, the next popular subject was how hard the thing kicked and how inaccurate it was; and I think they devoted ten minutes or so to lining up the sights. Then we were directed to the firing line where the pistols were on the bench waiting for us - we didn't walk with them in our hands at all - and I think three pre-loaded magazines with five rounds each. Shoot the ammo and get off the range.

I left a M1911A1 pistol at home when I enlisted and had some idea of how to work it. I was the one eyed man in the land of the blind.

Same with the rifle. We were more seriously trained with the rifle (an M14 in my case). We were 'exposed', or 'familiarization fire' to M60 machineguns and 3.5 inch rocket launchers and LAAW rocket launchers. Very limited.
I am not sure what your MOS was, but I do know your experience was far different than mine. I've probably put down 10s of thousands of rounds through various weapons, to include at least a dozen rockets and a few hundred rounds through a Mk-19. Of course, I was an infantry MOS. I also happened to be a squad leader in a good unit. Myself and other squad leaders convinced our CO that cross training (real cross training, not "familiarization") was valuable. Knowing how to pull the trigger on a 240 isn't that hard. Knowing how to set it up and lock it down on a tripod, along with making adjustments given by the A-gunner, takes a few trips to the range. We had that opportunity.

With this being said, the devil is in the details. I'm sure the OP meant "just because someone said it came from military, LEO, etc, don't take it as the gospel." This is true. The military is full of good people with important jobs that will likely never have to fire a gun in a conflict. Hence, they don't particularly train much for it. I do believe ALL LEO's should be able to give basic marksmanship advice. They don't have to be expert on everything that is firearms, but if they can't explain to someone how to shoot accurately then they are a walking liability. Yes, I know there are thousands (if not 10s of thousands) out there. That should be remedied.
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Old December 15, 2012, 10:18 PM   #40
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nor the integrity of law enforcement
This I will fight you over!!! I will work with and trust my life with my brother cops, and put up against any group of civilian workers in this area!!! They die for each other, and overall the integrity of cops vs. others is beyond contestation.

Call a hippie the next time things go bumpy on a dark night, and backup your talk!
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Old December 15, 2012, 10:19 PM   #41
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There was a girl who worked in our intel shop, hyper-competent at her job, very professional, who just could not shoot her Beretta.

Heck, her Beretta spent our entire deployment shoved in her make shift wall locker.

And she got a combat patch same as me and my guys.
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Old December 16, 2012, 11:15 AM   #42
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Another thing to remember is that just because someone is an expert with the skills and knowledge he uses in his job doesn't necessarily make him an expert in other, even if related, matters. Combat in a war zone is not exactly the same as self defense by a private citizen on a peaceful city street. And a local police officer shouldn't necessarily be expected to be fully familiar with federal law on firearm transfers.
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Old December 16, 2012, 01:37 PM   #43
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"Load nothing but tracers in the bottom half of your mag."
One of my favorites, knew that was dumb from the get go, I did make my last 4 tracers but not half the mag. Also we loaded mags from a can filled with a hodgepodge of Mk262 77gr OTMs and M855 62gr ball and I was told I should alternate every other round so that the M855 could punch through the car door and the Mk262 could easily follow behind and the "hollow point" would do more damage. I said "uh... Sure Sgt, whatever you say"

I don't claim to be an expert in laws or self defense tactics. I am, however, hyper alert/vigilant, proficient with a handgun and one of the better shooters in my company with a rifle. I will never clear a house/apartment by myself or even with another person who doesn't know exactly how its done, good way to have my little brother/mom/dad/girlfriend shoot me in the arse. The best choice IMHO when caught in a pickle whether in your own home or out in town is to hold your pos and defend yourself and those in your immediate vicinity if needed. Let the fight find you, hope that it doesn't, and be prepared when it does.

You want good advice? You need a SWAT cop with a minimum of 15 years of service in a big city AND a lawyer. I would think the two combined would cover most of your bases. And as always common sense is indispensable.

*Edit- and if you aren't nuts about the above, see the last line in my sig.
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Old December 18, 2012, 03:46 PM   #44
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S$&#% lawyers, the errornet & "tips"....

As a young E-1 buck in the US Army MP course(basic) our company commander(a O-3 captain who once ran the personal security detail for the commanding general of NATO) told us to avoid the; "S-house lawyers" .
This was sage advice. Many "experts" are way off base or use information that can't or won't relate to the student(listener).
I avoid giving out tips or advice unless I know it's been checked, I know the source or it's a personal view(weapons gear uniform items etc).
I've talked to many US LE officers over the years who give "citizens"(people not in their sworn agency) bad advice, wrong information or way off details.
I blame the training & admin standards of the state. My state used to provide sworn LE officers with regular in service training about gun laws, concealed carry requirements, armed industry SOPs(security bail enforcement PIs etc).
The state Div of Licensing & LE standards commission ended it in 2009 due to budget cuts.
This isn't an opinion or second hand either, I was in the state meeting when the Div of Licensing official said it.
Cops like other armed professionals should avoid telling citizens things unless they are 100% sure it's true. Many uniformed LE officers are asked a 1,000,000 times by citizens about guns, tactics, vehicles, ammunition, etc.
I'd take what a sworn LE officer says with grain of salt. They are NOT held to the same standards as a regular citizen & have the agency's $, resources & labor groups to support them.

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Old December 19, 2012, 02:08 AM   #45
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I think many who buy into "He/she is military or LE," are typically beginners. Fundamentals, which are *generally* taught pretty well are pretty basic and what I think many of the beginners seek from people they believe are experts. That in itself shouldn't be much of an issue. I think the big problem stems from the fact that the attitude instilled into the military (can't speak for LE), is to be so confident in your answer even when you don't know it or know you're wrong. People in the military and I am assuming LE do not want to feel inadequate in an area where many have high expectations.The other problem is one that stems out beyond firearms and one of which I encounter fairly regularly being former military. People, especially of the young adult age group, really want to live their fantasy through the militarys reality. What I mean by this is often times someone will ask a member of the military a question, and they may not have the answer. A typical response is "Awww come on man, you were this/that/the other!....but like I thought all Marines see combat and are rifleman...etc. etc." Some folks will just let them hear want they want to hear. I don't however think this is acceptable in talking about firearms and shooting.

Everyone else pretty much has said what needed to be said
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Old December 19, 2012, 06:52 AM   #46
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ohen cepel:

You wrote:

I had a bud (real story, I was there) who went to a guy from the SF group on post to put a scope on his hunting rifle. He couldn't figure out why he couldn't get it sighted in. The SF guy had mounted it sideways. Just because someone is SF, Ranger, DELTA, Boy Scouts, or a SEAL doesn't mean they are a weapons expert. Yes, some are the finest in the world, but not all. There are also medics, commo, intel, log, engineer, and many other fields in that world.

If hes with CAG (Delta) and graduated the operators training course he is an expert and hes extremely proficient with a wide variety of weapons.

Ive seen very few operators that couldnt smoke most civilian instructors on both knowledge of mms and skills with handling of a weapon.

To be clear their end game is not to put tight little holes in paper while standing on a firing line. Their end game is CQB and they clear rooms in low light / no light while moving around innocent people. So in this case I would take advice from any CAG operator.

Your end point about medics/commo/engineers/Intel makes me wonder if you have ever been around the SF community - Who do you think makes up an ODA?? (12 man team) their are only two light weapons guys on the team .

I think the problem your pointing out is the difference between the support guys and the operational guys. NO SF guy mounted a scope sideways. It may have been a support guy asigned to an SF Group but not an SF guy. Same goes for the SEAL team members and the guys in the ranger bats

And yes even among the teams there are some elements that get more training with certain weapons but by and large in the SPECOPS community the team guys are well qualified to give advice on small arms.


here is a video for your viewing pleasure


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2Vod8NUE0M
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Old December 19, 2012, 04:47 PM   #47
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5Whiskey

I went through basic training in 1969 in a hurry to get bodies over to the South East Asian area.

If you got more training than I did, I'm glad to hear it. I think that's great.

Still and all, all the training you and I both received in the Marine Corps didn't teach either one of us to shoot birds or intimate knowledge of commercial self-defense ammunition.

So, neither of us are going to be the ultimate answer man.
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Old December 28, 2012, 11:33 PM   #48
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Just because somebody was once a cop or served in the military does not necessarily make them knowledgable about ANYTHING.

And I say that from the perspective of a police firearms instructor (almost 32 years) who was in law enforcement related positions in the National Guard for 20 years. I've seen this from both the police side and the military side.

Most people, in any endeavor in life, coast along and do the minimum (or a little more) necessary to function in their occupation.

Only a small group of motivated people devotes any of their own time to improving their knowledge and abilities and skills.

Only a small group of motivated people even pays attention to THEIR OWN EXPERIENCE and learns from it. Most people just bumble along in the fog.

People who lack intellectual curiosity irritate me, and the older I get the more it irritates me . . .

So, if somebody was a cop, or in a military specialty where they were armed as part of their job function (infantry, MP, combat engineer, etc) they had the OPPERTUNITY to learn things, but only if they PAID ATTENTION!

And most likely, if they ARE knowledgable, it's because they had a personal interest that aligned with their job function, and they took it upon themselves to learn more, because it was fun for them. That's NOT most people, unfortunately
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Old December 29, 2012, 06:00 AM   #49
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You have to understand that a lot of military members only handle weapons when qualification time comes around. Not all military occupations require individuals to be well trained in firearms. There are also a lot of people in this world that claim to be in the military usually saying they were some sort of special forces or infantry that never were. The ones that have served in those type of positions dont talk about it much.
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Old December 29, 2012, 10:10 AM   #50
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23 years of LE behind me so far. The majority of officers I know are not into guns [and their qualification scores show it]. Even so, the only LEOs I'd take advice from as far as guns and gunfights would be the late Jim Cirillo, and also Massad Ayoob. Having said that: Nicky Santoro, you're entitled to your opinion. You're also wrong to paint all of LE with the same broad brush. Unless you've met, talked to, and spent time with every single LEO in this country, and somehow have found them to be without integrity, your statement is pointless, anti-LE nonsense. Just admit that you hate cops; no need to dance around the subject.
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