The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 22, 2000, 12:57 AM   #1
Anthony
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 1998
Location: Dallas, Texas (United States)
Posts: 416
Merry Christmas Everyone,

Massad Ayoob covered the growing use of ballistic shields by patrol officers in the January, 2001 issue of "Guns and Weapons of Law Enforcement" in his First Responder column. Although he doesn't suggest civilian use of ballistic shields, it started me thinking.

At LFI-I, Ayoob laid out his idea of the well stocked home defense kit for civilians and their safe room. It included a ballistic vest for each combatant. He also laid out tactics for retrieving children and ("if we insist") valubles from locations outside the safe room.

The possibility of having to leave the safe room can be very high if you have a family, and if I had a choice of going out into "no man's land" with or without a ballistic shield it would definitely be with.

Has anyone else thought of this before?

Does anyone else have one in their home defense kit?

Are there any police officers that use a ballistic shield on a regular basis and could offer some insights from actual usage?

Does anyone have brand suggestions?

Thanks for all the help.

- Anthony
Anthony is offline  
Old December 22, 2000, 05:01 PM   #2
Hard Ball
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 1999
Location: California
Posts: 3,925
It would be interesting to know the effectiveness and cost tradeoffs between body armor and ballistic shields if anyone has that information.
Hard Ball is offline  
Old December 22, 2000, 09:46 PM   #3
Erik
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 1999
Location: America
Posts: 3,479
Ballistic shields are heavy, expensive, and require additional training to use effectively.

Further, I have to really start stretching the scenarios in my mind to come up with a justification for using one.

They simply are not needed unless you are the point man on a multiple member team, IMO.
Erik is offline  
Old December 23, 2000, 05:13 PM   #4
Vern Brink
Member
 
Join Date: March 13, 2000
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 85
My partner and I carry one in are car and it gets used fairly regularly. I echo what's already been mentioned.

Pluses: Mobile ballistic protection - Your first form of cover should be your personal vest. Covers your face looking through viewing port.

Not so plus: Heavy (even with extra arm workouts), expensive, big (hallways aren't always), Level II only (and no, Level II shield plus Level II body armor doesn't equal Level IV protection - that stuff is really heavy), difficult to shoot accurately, two hands - 3 tools (shield, light, gun)

Shield 1600, Second Chance Ultima 800 or so. Go with the body armor w/the titanium trauma plate.

On a side note, another agency we work with is testing full see through/plexi ballistic shields that you can shoot through, yet they still provide ballistic protection the other way. Haven't heard anything real world about em yet though.
__________________
S/F
Vern
Vern Brink is offline  
Old January 21, 2001, 03:54 PM   #5
snoman45
Junior Member
 
Join Date: December 31, 2000
Location: Sauk Rapids, Mn
Posts: 11
We were also looking into the shoot thruogh sheilds, and windows, they are cheaper put I would worry about some 20 year old getting 7 bucks an hour putting the handle on the wrong side...
snoman45 is offline  
Old January 23, 2001, 01:08 PM   #6
Cheapo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 19, 1998
Posts: 986
What about hardening your concealment?

Once you decide what threat level to protect against, you can rather inexpensively make some corners safer than others.

Assuming (with all dangers) that the BG is much more likely to fire towards a target obscured behind a wall, the downsides appear minimal. Plus, only *you* will know which surfaces are hardened.

As a thought-provoker, do you know how many inches of dry newsprint it takes to stop a 9mm?

With sheetrock or 1/2-inch ply on the backside, you may be surprised!

Then there are the remote-wired flash-bangs on the opposite end of the house. A few of those might be better than a shield...
Cheapo is offline  
Old January 23, 2001, 02:47 PM   #7
Anthony
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 1998
Location: Dallas, Texas (United States)
Posts: 416
Alas, getting the flash bangs would be the problem.



- Anthony
Anthony is offline  
Old January 24, 2001, 07:59 PM   #8
G-man
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2001
Location: Easton, PA
Posts: 2

Flashbangs...Not a good choice, also illegal!


G-man
G-man is offline  
Old January 25, 2001, 12:16 PM   #9
Steel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 12, 2000
Location: Texas
Posts: 504
Have we reached the point where we need ballistic shields?!
Steel is offline  
Old January 25, 2001, 12:35 PM   #10
Anthony
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 1998
Location: Dallas, Texas (United States)
Posts: 416
I don't think "need" is the issue here. It is more "want". As in if I have to creep down my hallway to gather my nieces up to take them back to the saferoom, I WANT to do it behind a ballistic shield.

- Anthony
Anthony is offline  
Old August 2, 2001, 02:51 AM   #11
AndyTheGunNut
Junior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2001
Location: Texas
Posts: 2
BP Vest Prices

After looking for one for a while, I've finally purchased a 3A vest on eBay for $165 (including S/H). I should get it next week. My questions are as follows:

1. I'm looking for a surplus, clearance, or used rifle plate. I think the pocket measures something like 13" x 13". I've seen 11" x 12" plates advertised. Does anyone know of a cheap source for one of these? If I have to spend more than $50, I'm just going for scrap steel plate.

2. Has anyone heard of Marric? They are out of Mexico. They made my vest.

3. My thinking is that for the general public, in the city, 99% of self defense would occur with a CCW or lesser weapon - carried either on the person, in their truck, or in their bedroom. There are reasons to keep a 3A vest and a military rifle. Among them are riots, and the original intent of the 2nd amendment.

4. What rifle ammo is best for penetrating light armor? I've seend 30-06 AP listed as the qualification for Level 4. I've also been told that a .308 is just a shortened 30-06. Can .308 be as potent as 30-06? I've got plenty of SS109s, but I'm loosing faith in them as 3A body armor becomes easily conealable. My next rifle will be purchased expressly for the purpose of setting aside with a large quantity of AP ammo.

Thanks,

AndyTheGunNut
AndyTheGunNut is offline  
Old August 2, 2001, 03:31 AM   #12
PreserveFreedom
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Woah, this is an oldie. There are two plus' that I can see from a ballistic shield over a vest.

1) With proper training/use, can be effectively used to deflect molitov cocktails commonly used in gun-free "safe" countries.

2) Can be used to protect multiple would-be-victims from an assailant without sacraficing so0meone as a "human shield". This is the most likely scenerio if you are concerned with rescuing family members from another part of the home.

Note the use of the word "can" in both situations above. The shield can be useful in the right hands. In the wrong hands, it can be as useless as boobs on a grizzly.
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.08583 seconds with 7 queries