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Old December 14, 2012, 02:17 AM   #51
bitttorrrent
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Quote:
The shooter fired 8 rounds and killed three and wounded five. All of the victims were moving
From that highschool shooting referenced..

This from a .22 ruger.

I'm new in the market for a CCW gun and I was just thinking if I had been at that mall with a gun, would I have stopped this crazy?

It also made me think that along with the advice of others on a CCW, the biggest you can carry the better. Something that could respond to a man size target from 30-50 yards.
If I was in the right spot (or wrong) and had my gun, I would first take cover and then see if I could stop him. I am not the type to run away unless of course I had my kids with me.

So many variables.

Didn't they say 10,000 people at the mall and no one aside from an unarmed vendor on the main floor who followed the shooter but of course too late for the two who were shot and killed.
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Old December 14, 2012, 09:32 AM   #52
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I would most definitely follow this video to a T....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VcSw...ature=youtu.be

Thanks, Homeland Security

I'm sorry, but I'd go with Cover. Draw. Cap the SOB.

If I can't carry, such as at work, I'm going out the window - the safety of others is their problem. If not allowed the tools with which to defend, I'm looking out for number 1 (and number 2 if the wife is along)
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Old December 14, 2012, 11:21 AM   #53
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Was taught by Detroit LE that the only time you draw your handgun is when you are under imminent deadly threat and that when you draw, you fire immdediately and quickly re-holster because you might get (mistakenly) shot by a uniform or off-duty LEO.

"...Cover. Draw. Cap the SOB." [Stressfire]

If there's time.

If I am in the perp's face when the perp pulls out his firearm, (as in the video) then must go Wyatt Earp mode instantaneously.

A difficult, challenging place to be
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Old December 14, 2012, 01:20 PM   #54
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Apparently a worse nightmare has occurred today here in CT.
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Old December 14, 2012, 01:38 PM   #55
Glenn E. Meyer
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That's true but let's have rational discourse please.

About Oregon, it looks like the Mall had worked out a reasonable response plan:

http://www.oregonlive.com/clackamasc...rt_maj-story-1

True it's not gun oriented but sensible.
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Old December 14, 2012, 01:41 PM   #56
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Please note that we are holding off discussion of the CT school shooting, please see:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=508968

We need more info.
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Old December 15, 2012, 01:20 AM   #57
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here is an interesting article from the local news here in Portland.

Active shooter at Clackamas Town Center: What would you have done?

Quote:
And no matter who you talk to – the Department of Homeland Security, FEMA or the Clackamas County Sheriff's Office – the basic message is the same: Run, hide, or -- as a last resort -- fight.
Quote:
* If you can't run or hide, take action: As a last resort, and only when your life is in imminent danger, attempt to disrupt and/or incapacitate the shooter.
– FEMA/Countermeasure Consulting Group
I'm not suggesting anything but in regards what to do even the authorities understand the position of the civilian.
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Old December 15, 2012, 10:55 AM   #58
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I read a post on another forum from someone stating they are with the Easy Bake Gun Club and that they did verify the story.

http://easybakegunclub.com/news/1943...oncealed-.html
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Old December 15, 2012, 12:53 PM   #59
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I find it interesting that a letter from the Clackamas County Sheriff to the community does not acknowledge the armed citizens actions.

Clackamas Town Center shooting: A letter from Sheriff Craig Roberts about law enforcement response

If the LEA does not acknowledge the guy then where did NWCN get their source?


http://www.nwcn.com/news/oregon/183609901.html
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Last edited by Koda94; December 15, 2012 at 01:05 PM.
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Old December 15, 2012, 01:25 PM   #60
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I emailed the reporter on the CCW citizen at the mall and he replied:

Quote:
Glad you emailed me. I have no reason to believe this story is inaccurate or dramatized.
The story is an actual report, not some internet hoax or rumor.
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Old December 15, 2012, 02:53 PM   #61
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You can see an interview with him at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iD52IxplEoM

With that, you should be able to judge his believability for yourself.

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Old December 15, 2012, 05:45 PM   #62
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Is there a detailed account of what and where the gunman did the shooting . I ask cus the CCW guy says he heard 3 shots the gun jammed and then he believes the gunman took his own life with one more shot . That is a total of 4 shots fired . Is that the official count . If not why did he not hear the other shots . Might be a way of confirming his story .

I would think it's unlikely anyone saw him pull his gun they all were running ducking for cover or looking at the gunman rather then others around them .

Finding the friends he was with and them confirming the story would go a long ways .
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Old December 16, 2012, 12:34 PM   #63
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Quote:
That is a total of 4 shots fired . Is that the official count . If not why did he not hear the other shots . Might be a way of confirming his story .
Early reports said 60 shots fired.....
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Old December 16, 2012, 02:05 PM   #64
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Surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet (unless I missed it) but there was an armed CHL holder in the mall who chose not to fire due to bystanders.

http://www.nwcn.com/news/oregon/183609901.html

Quote:
Meli, who has a concealed carry permit, positioned himself behind a pillar.

"He was working on his rifle," said Meli. "He kept pulling the charging handle and hitting the side."

The break in gunfire allowed Meli to pull out his own gun, but he never took his eyes off the shooter.

"As I was going down to pull I saw someone in the back of the charlotte move and I knew if I fired and missed I could hit them."

Meli took cover inside a nearby store. He never pulled the trigger. He stands by that decision.
Edit: I definitely missed the whole last page of discussion. lol
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Old December 16, 2012, 09:30 PM   #65
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I read in one of the posts that the police dont train for an active shooter situation. They do. It may not be called "ACTIVE SHOOTER" but police train for, and deal with "man with a gun" calls all the time. The difference is some departments when confronted with an active shooter would wait for SWAT or some special unit leaving the shooter to have his way with the victims.

My department had no such policy. If we responded to a man with a gun call, we would investigate and attempt to apprehend or shoot the shooter. At the same time calling in the troops. Coordinating response, covering exits, and using every approach. Police 101. 99% of the time a 911 operator would keep a caller on the line feeding us information such as location and description of the shooter, victims needing aid, descriptions of others involved. Shooters active or otherwise would be dealt with the officers assigned to the call, or the first back up unit on the scene. If the situation becomes a hostage situation then the Emergency Services (swat) would take over along with a negotiator. If the situation became prolonged or there was a need for a detailed search, the first responding officers would be relieved by ESS officers if possible.

As far as an armed non-sworn civilian, or an off duty officer... If I was either... I'd probably take the shot.

For those who would take off... I'd advise looking for emergency exit signage. I'd advise against going to the parking lot or main mall entrance. It may be an organized operation by trained terrorists. It's a tactic they use to draw in the emergency responders en masse, along with spectators, and victims recieving aid. Then detonate a powerfull bomb. That being the main event, and the shooting just a way to draw in the actual targets
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Old December 17, 2012, 12:03 AM   #66
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Im not sure about the ccw carrier that had opportunity to end the massacre not engaging. From the little i read on the post the crazy was dealing with a malfunctioning weapon at least for a moment two.
The decision not to engage in case of a miss and someone fleeting behind the nut job somehow doesnt make muster. I wasnt there so this arm chair quarter backing but, faced with a mass shooter intent on killing more people and offered a chance to stop him from likely killing several to many more innocents vs the chance I might miss and hit someone I saw MOVING behind him and quite possibly out of the way by the time I fired I believe I would engage.
As I say I wasnt there have limited knowledge of the whole shooting encounter but based on just that I dont think I could do nothing and retreat in that exact situation and allow the killing to continue.
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Old December 17, 2012, 12:25 AM   #67
Koda94
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What I want to know is: in this exact situation would it still be considered self defense to take the shot if the mall shooter was busy clearing a jam?
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Old December 17, 2012, 02:04 AM   #68
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No lawyer here but in my state you have the right to defend a third party from serious injury or death. Even lacking that your still faced with self defense. In this case we are talking about someone who has already in fact attacked with lethal force stopped only by a weapon malfunction and in the process of clearing that, leaving any reasonable person with every reason to believe he intends to continue killing.
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Old December 17, 2012, 07:49 AM   #69
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Quote:
What I want to know is: in this exact situation would it still be considered self defense to take the shot if the mall shooter was busy clearing a jam?
No prosecutor around here would indict, and no jury herabouts would convict someone who killed someone who was clearing a jammed weapon so he could keep killing more people.

YMMV. If it does, your locality has some serious issues with it's justice system.
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Old December 17, 2012, 07:55 AM   #70
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I still want to hear why (though I think I know why) I have not heard more about Mr. Meli's actions in the MSM .......

....if we do, Mr. Meli will be mentioned as a "security guard", not as a private citizen.
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Last edited by Frank Ettin; December 17, 2012 at 10:40 AM. Reason: off topic
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Old December 17, 2012, 08:43 AM   #71
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Quote:
No prosecutor around here would indict, and no jury herabouts would convict someone who killed someone who was clearing a jammed weapon so he could keep killing more people.

YMMV. If it does, your locality has some serious issues with it's justice system.
welcome to NJ!

you didn't take your opportunity to retreat, now you're in the frying pan
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Old December 17, 2012, 02:07 PM   #72
Blade37db
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I was shocked last night when I was watching CNN and a 2A supporter was engaging the host and mentioned the citizen's involvement in this incident. Of course I came here and read the last page of replies for details. I am outraged that this hasn't been mentioned in the mainstream media (but I'm not shocked). The host of the show (Piers Morgan) actually said that no civilian/ armed citizen has ever stopped a mass shooting and that it is a "myth" that it has been done.
I would highly encurage anyone on this board who knows of a story or has a link to a news report of a citizen stopping a shooter to please e-mail it to Mr. Morgan at CNN.
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Old December 19, 2012, 07:22 PM   #73
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Quote:
he host of the show (Piers Morgan) actually said that no civilian/ armed citizen has ever stopped a mass shooting and that it is a "myth" that it has been done.
Perhaps you could supply some links.

I only recall one incident, where a school employee went out to his car to retrieve a weapon. Can't remember whether that person actually stopped the shooting.

In other cases the shooting was stopped by unarmed students or adults and by private security as in the attempted church shooting.
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Old December 19, 2012, 07:25 PM   #74
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Don't forget the Colorado church incident. In the case mentioned in Arkansas, IIRC - the vice principal retrieved his firearm and stopped the shooter from fleeing.
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Old December 19, 2012, 10:24 PM   #75
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Look up the work of Ron Borsch.

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