Bill Of Sale For Private Sales/Trades? - Page 3

ronto · December 13, 2012, 04:51 PM

I've sold/traded guns to dealers at gun shows without a bill of sale. I wouldn't sell a gun to any Joe Blow off the street if I didn't know them.

**hogdogs** · December 13, 2012, 04:57 PM

Here is how that went...
The gun was confiscated following the Agg. Assault charge... It was "stored" in the evidence room for 10 years... Before destruction, they ran the numbers one more time to make sure it didn't come back as wanted in another crime, or numbers reported stolen...

The city PD did nothave it reported stolen by me as the paperwork with all of my firearms #'s was in the lock box also stolen...

The selling dealer "Service Merchandise" was out of business so i couldn't call for the serial number...

So when ATF got the numbers for research, they found the paperwork the FFL had to submit when they closed up...

They sent a copy of the 4473 and the register tape to the city PD...

A very aware and dilligent lady noted that the criminal's name and mine were not the same... So she looked up mine in the system and found I had reported a burglary in which I lost a LARGE number of firearms... I was only able to provide make and model and description of identifying marks...

They then sent me a letter asking I call... A few minutes later I found out which gun they had and I went and picked it up the next day at which time I had to fill out another 4473 but NO CHARGE for the back ground check

...

Brent

Ben Towe · December 13, 2012, 05:10 PM

Okay, that makes more sense. I'm glad you got your gun back, but I was under the impression that they weren't really supposed to keep a database like that from a legal standpoint. I know they keep the 4473s, but entering them into a searchable database is a bit different.

Keepin_Jeepin · December 13, 2012, 05:11 PM

For those of you that do not get a bill of sale, does anyone ever worry about the gun being reported stolen?

What if the said person tries to report it stolen, gets money from you and then tries to get the gun back by reporting?

I am just curious. I had this fear when I bought a gun from a friend, and then he had an unrelated argument. Nothing was ever signed but I gave him money for it. Nothing ever happened though it was just a thought in the back of my mind.

Lordy123 · December 13, 2012, 05:24 PM

Quote:

I had this fear when I bought a gun from a friend

If it would have been a fridge, antique clock, or signed baseball; what, if anything, would have been different about the situation?

Edit: I guess my point is, CYA when buying or selling anything private party. You can be smart and aware without making the buyer/seller sign a billion things. If you have email/phone/text records from precursory conversations about the sale, keep em in a file cabinet or something. That should mediate this specific concern.

**hogdogs** · December 13, 2012, 05:34 PM

Quote:

For those of you that do not get a bill of sale, does anyone ever worry about the gun being reported stolen?

What if the said person tries to report it stolen, gets money from you and then tries to get the gun back by reporting?

I am just curious. I had this fear when I bought a gun from a friend, and then he had an unrelated argument. Nothing was ever signed but I gave him money for it. Nothing ever happened though it was just a thought in the back of my mind.

Considering I find the guns FOR SALE on forums or on Craigslist, I have either PM's where we discuss the transaction along with the seller's cell phone number where we talked in person or on Craigslist, I have an email "un"-papertrail via my email history... NOT A LICK... No I do not worry about it...

BTW... That Blackhawk wagon, on craigslist, with the .44 inch wheels... and 8 inch handle... it was out of my price range...

Brent

**hogdogs** · December 13, 2012, 06:22 PM

IIRC, my gun's serial numbers were entered in the NCIC (or whatever) database since it was used in a felony crime... Thus it got a hit which pulled up the BATFE data from the defunct FFL...

Brent

Wyoredman · December 13, 2012, 07:13 PM

This thread got me wondering about selling other personal property. When selling a car, I just need to sign the title and take the money, I don't need the buyers DL#, I am not required to make sure they have insurance and I am not required to ask if they have been convicted of DUI!

Why in the heck would I go through all that to sell a gun if I don't do it when selling a car? I don't do it when selling a chicken, or a goat, or a couch!

The gun is my personal property, I don't need permission from the Government to sell my personal property as long as the sale is legal. When the Government starts requireing its apporval for private property sales, I will throw in the towl, and no longer be a free man.

To voluntarily give up my freedom to sell whatever I want, as long as it is legal, is just un-fathomable.

dogtown tom · December 13, 2012, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Brian Pfleuger ....Getting a receipt for a purchase is a normal, every day part of conducting your life.

True, but that isn't close to what some of you in this thread are discussing.

A "receipt" typically doesn't have a shred of information on the buyer. When I buy a TV at Target they have no freaking clue who I am, where I live nor do they ask for my drivers license number. Do you (the buyer) demand the drivers license number of the clerk at Target? Does the seller (Target) demand to write down your drivers license number for a CASH transaction? Of course they don't, that would be silly..........just like this thread.

If I pay cash for something the seller has no legal reason to record MY information. If he wants to hand me a receipt for my cash purchase of his gun, thanks. But he has ZERO reasons to record any of my information.

If you are terrified that you are buying a stolen gun.........never buy anything used. Even if bought at a gun store from a licensed dealer there is no way to tell if that gun was stolen and subsequently sold to that dealer.

Strafer Gott · December 13, 2012, 07:29 PM

I know my LGS fully documents incoming firearms with BOS or trade.
I never have required one, and I don't intend to, because I'm not in that business.

dogtown tom · December 13, 2012, 07:55 PM

Quote:

zincwarrior

Quote:

Quote:
Those who think a bill of sale insulates them from civil or criminal liability are sadly mistaken. (people will still sue you if they think you have money. Juries will wonder why you were diligent enough to have a bill of sale, yet not investigate the buyers background)

Those who think a bill of sale is "proof" of anything are sadly mistaken. (I just wrote myself a BOS for Interstate 45, so all you Texans should know it's mine now)

Getting the drivers license # of the buyer or seller proves what exactly? (faked DL's are all over, just ask any LEO)

Some of you guys don't recognise freedom when its staring you in the face. If you want to act like a dealer....get a freaking FFL. Then your REQUIRED to have all sorts of documentation.

If you are so paranoid, scared or cautious that you refuse to do a face to face sale of a gun...........take it to your local gun dealer and let him run the sale through his books and then transfer the firearm to the buyer with a 4473 and NICS check.

I like the personal attacks. Thats very choice.
Reported.

Uhhhhh..........care to point out the "personal attack"?

AH.74 · December 15, 2012, 12:52 PM

Quote:

You said if it was shady it'd be addressed by law. Why would "it" specifically be addressed and other shady things wouldn't?

I did not say that. I said if it was such an issue it would have been addressed and regulated. And to repeat, again- it's not, and so it hasn't been.

Quote:

All kinds of "private" transactions happen every day. Some people want receipts, some people don't care.

Wanting one or not wanting/caring are not shady. Refusing to provide a receipt is shady.

In your opinion. If I don't want to provide a receipt or get one from you, there's nothing shady about it. It's perfectly legal- therefore not shady at all.

Quote:

It's such a common, every day, normal part of life that a refusal to provide one is a significant red flag.

Absolutely not, for the same reasons- it's not illegal or questionable in any way, shape, or form. If you aren't comfortable with your potential buyer, fine- but an across-the-board broad-brushing of every refusal as being shady is not appropriate.

Quote:

I've bought and sold all kinds of things over the years, both with and without receipts. I've been asked for one when I didn't care and I've asked for them when the other person apparently didn't care.

Neither of those is shady. If I ask for one and it's a "No!", it's shady as hell.

Same answer as above. You keep saying the same thing. I may have my reasons, which have been spelled out in this thread as being perfectly legitimate and within the lines of the law. Nothing shady about any of it.

Aguila Blanca · December 15, 2012, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strafer Gott

I know my LGS fully documents incoming firearms with BOS or trade.

And that doesn't provide any absolute assurance that the firearm in question wasn't stolen many years ago, in some other state, and subsequently passed through multiple owners without having been picked up by "the system." ALL that proves is that your LGS knows who they took it in from.

8MM Mauser · December 15, 2012, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Most guns I sell are at gunshops on consignment. If by chance I do a face to face and the buyer can't or won't produce an Id, I don't need to sell to him and he does not have to buy from me.

On the off chance that the gun is used down the road in an illegal manner and the police may come to my door inquiring about said gun, I want to be able not only to say I sold the gun but also to whom and when.

If that offends anyone, buy your gun somewhere else.

Couldn't agree more.

I have always asked for some basic info when selling a gun.

Why not?

mitchntx · December 15, 2012, 08:02 PM

8mm wrote:

Quote:

I have always asked for some basic info when selling a gun.

Why not?

Please clarify ...

Asking a few questions is one thing, writing them down is something completely different.

View Poll Results: Do You Require a Bill of Sale for Private Transactions?
Yes	37	52.86%
No	33	47.14%
Voters: 70. You may not vote on this poll

December 13, 2012, 04:51 PM	#51
ronto Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2007 Location: Smack Dab in the Middle of Nowhere. Posts: 504	I've sold/traded guns to dealers at gun shows without a bill of sale. I wouldn't sell a gun to any Joe Blow off the street if I didn't know them. __________________ "We will do this: we will hang together, we will keep our organization, our arms, our discipline, our hatred of oppression, until one universal shout goes up from an admiring age that this Missouri Cavalry Division preferred exile to submission, death to dishonor". General Joseph O. Shelby, CSA (1830-1897) The only Confederate General who refused to surrender himself or his 1,000+ "Iron Brigade".

December 13, 2012, 04:57 PM	#52
hogdogs Staff Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 10,686	Here is how that went... The gun was confiscated following the Agg. Assault charge... It was "stored" in the evidence room for 10 years... Before destruction, they ran the numbers one more time to make sure it didn't come back as wanted in another crime, or numbers reported stolen... The city PD did nothave it reported stolen by me as the paperwork with all of my firearms #'s was in the lock box also stolen... The selling dealer "Service Merchandise" was out of business so i couldn't call for the serial number... So when ATF got the numbers for research, they found the paperwork the FFL had to submit when they closed up... They sent a copy of the 4473 and the register tape to the city PD... A very aware and dilligent lady noted that the criminal's name and mine were not the same... So she looked up mine in the system and found I had reported a burglary in which I lost a LARGE number of firearms... I was only able to provide make and model and description of identifying marks... They then sent me a letter asking I call... A few minutes later I found out which gun they had and I went and picked it up the next day at which time I had to fill out another 4473 but NO CHARGE for the back ground check... Brent __________________ Finally have designs going up in the Hogdogs Outdoor Apparel online store. http://www.cafepress.com/hogdogsoutdoorapparel Thanks for lookin'...

December 13, 2012, 05:10 PM	#53
Ben Towe Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2009 Location: Middle Tennessee Posts: 974	Okay, that makes more sense. I'm glad you got your gun back, but I was under the impression that they weren't really supposed to keep a database like that from a legal standpoint. I know they keep the 4473s, but entering them into a searchable database is a bit different. __________________ I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.-Thomas Jefferson I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees.-Euripides

December 13, 2012, 06:22 PM	#57
hogdogs Staff Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 10,686	IIRC, my gun's serial numbers were entered in the NCIC (or whatever) database since it was used in a felony crime... Thus it got a hit which pulled up the BATFE data from the defunct FFL... Brent __________________ Finally have designs going up in the Hogdogs Outdoor Apparel online store. http://www.cafepress.com/hogdogsoutdoorapparel Thanks for lookin'...

December 13, 2012, 05:11 PM	#54
Keepin_Jeepin Senior Member Join Date: October 4, 2007 Location: Chelan Posts: 158	For those of you that do not get a bill of sale, does anyone ever worry about the gun being reported stolen? What if the said person tries to report it stolen, gets money from you and then tries to get the gun back by reporting? I am just curious. I had this fear when I bought a gun from a friend, and then he had an unrelated argument. Nothing was ever signed but I gave him money for it. Nothing ever happened though it was just a thought in the back of my mind.

December 13, 2012, 07:13 PM	#58
Wyoredman Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2011 Location: Wyoming Posts: 987	This thread got me wondering about selling other personal property. When selling a car, I just need to sign the title and take the money, I don't need the buyers DL#, I am not required to make sure they have insurance and I am not required to ask if they have been convicted of DUI! Why in the heck would I go through all that to sell a gun if I don't do it when selling a car? I don't do it when selling a chicken, or a goat, or a couch! The gun is my personal property, I don't need permission from the Government to sell my personal property as long as the sale is legal. When the Government starts requireing its apporval for private property sales, I will throw in the towl, and no longer be a free man. To voluntarily give up my freedom to sell whatever I want, as long as it is legal, is just un-fathomable. __________________ Go Pokes! Go Rams!

December 13, 2012, 07:29 PM	#60
Strafer Gott Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2011 Location: New Mexico Posts: 878	I know my LGS fully documents incoming firearms with BOS or trade. I never have required one, and I don't intend to, because I'm not in that business.