Bill Of Sale For Private Sales/Trades? - Page 2

big_bad_kitty · December 12, 2012, 07:37 PM

I am an FFL. I am also an attorney. If someone asks me to fill out anything I respond with we will just run it through my A&D book. That way I have all the info I need to cover myself and is nothing more than they were asking of me. It has been almost three years since ATF has looked at my A&D book and I am due for a renewal inspection mid year in 2013. All firearms are either in my book or done with a showing of my CHL and a handshake. If there needs to be something in writing, I call the Sheriff's office while in my office to run the serial numbers. If someone is hung up on getting my info, there is usually something wrong with the deal anyway. JMHO and the way I handle my business.

Joe_Pike · December 12, 2012, 09:00 PM

The first couple of times I didn't but then I started to. It's not in any way required but it makes me feel better. If I know the person I don't worry about it, though.

medalguy · December 13, 2012, 12:26 AM

In Texas, all that's required of the seller is that he not have any reason to believe that the buyer is a prohibited person. That's a pretty simple requirement, and lacking that belief, I'd not hesitate to sell a gun to anyone whom I had no reason to bellieve was a prohibited person. No BOS required and none given.

I sure as heck don't want to give my personal information to a complete stranger in a parking lot. No siree.

**hogdogs** · December 13, 2012, 12:36 AM

If I want a form 4473 tied to my purchase, I can buy a new firearm through my local dealer...

If I want a PRIVATE transaction, I can find a seller who will meet my requirements...

If a private seller wants my DL# and DNA... Sorry but I was lookin' for a gun when I found that'n...

The 4473 is not as innocuous as some may think...

The BATFE will get these forms when the FFL closes his doors and they are not shelved in some dark dank cellar in a government building...

THEY ARE PUT IN THE "SYSTEM"!!!

My returned M-500 is proof... Spent 11 years in an evidense room before the city PD re-ran the numbers prior to sale/destruction after a person (possibly the burglar who stole it) lost it to them following an Ag. Assault charge with it...

Glad I got it back??? CERTAINLY... VERY TELLING OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT'S CAPABILITY TO FOLLOW THE 4473... No doubt in my mind!!!

I am not into conspiracy theories but I prefer to keep some transactions pretty close to the cuff...

Brent

Brent

mitchntx · December 13, 2012, 08:48 AM

This ....

Quote:

The first couple of times I didn't but then I started to. It's not in any way required but it makes me feel better. If I know the person I don't worry about it, though.

Everyone has their own "feel-good" threshold. I respect that and hope those who want a BOS respect mine.

Personally, I won't require one nor will I fill one out. Giving personal info to a stranger is extremely dangerous these days ... a lot more so than any remote possibility of some liability down the road if due dilligence is done during the sale process.

If I'm buying or selling, I have an e-mail chat, phone chat and/or a face to face encounter. Ask a few questions about the area or where they work ... look for consistency in their story through out.

And I'm ready to walk if I get a "funny feeling". Lots of guns for sale out there.

Just exchanging a piece of paper isn't any reflection on a person's character.

Some one who INSISTS on a BOS makes me suspicious and I'll do business elsewhere. But that is just me ...

zincwarrior · December 13, 2012, 09:37 AM

I respect that. In return, anyone who refuses a BOS makes me suspicious. If you won't abide by the requirements to purchase a used car, I surely wouldn't sell you a firearm.

Your mielage may vary, and thats fine by me too.

**Brian Pfleuger** · December 13, 2012, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AH.74

What is this going to get you in a private sale where I take your cash and hand you a gun? I'm not giving you any warranty or guarantee. Can't you just make your own accounting for your records? How would that be any different?

It's got nothing to do with accounting from a financial perspective. It's proof that I had no reason to believe there was any problem with the transaction and the other party represented it as such. I buy a TV, I have no way of knowing if it's stolen or not. No record of a transaction is shady. The cops show up (somehow) for this stolen TV, I have a receipt. I didn't know it was stolen. I still lose the TV but I have reasonable evidence that I thought I was conducting a legit transaction.

There's no reason why a legit transaction can not be accompanied by a receipt. None. My name, his name, what I bought. That's all I need.

Refusing it is silly anyway. I can grab my cell phone and turn on the audio recording and get the whole conversation if I want. I can take pictures of his car and license plate if I want. I guarantee the seller would never know.

For like $25, I can get a pen "spy" cam and put it in my pocket and have the whole thing on video.

It's naive to think that there's no trail because you don't have a piece of paper.

All I want is a receipt.

mitchntx · December 13, 2012, 10:06 AM

If you want to covertly act that way, then I certainly can't stop you. But those actions have nothing to do with the sale. Casing a victim happens all the time, I suspect.

But I don't have to freely and willingly give you a starting point and intel on my access to disposable income and, if I'm buying one, the probability I own several guns.

Thieves are sneaky. I wouldn't think it odd that someone with intentions less than good would invest in a gun in order to sell it to gather intel.

Good discussion.

**Brian Pfleuger** · December 13, 2012, 10:14 AM

Someone is going to sell you a gun so they can come and rob you?

I love that argument.

Doesn't it seem a tad more likely, if we're making up fantasies, that they would rob the guy from whom they GOT the gun?

I mean, you're going to rob the guy who USED TO have a gun or the guy who NOW has one?

Better yet, wouldn't they USE the gun that they bought from the other guy, to rob HIM. I mean, he's unarmed now and they're NOT, perfect target. He's defenseless AND you can steal back the money that you just paid him for the gun! Why would they SELL their best robbery tool?!

Come on. There's a certain level of caution that crosses into paranoia. If the guy wants to rob you, a piece of paper with NOTHING but your NAME on it isn't going to help.

His thug buddies that he brought to case the transaction can follow you home.

Lordy123 · December 13, 2012, 11:13 AM

I usually make sure their license is real, and take down the number. I'll ask if they're a resident, and if they've ever been convicted of a felony.

I'll check later on WI circuit court access or criminalsearches.com, if I thought the buyer wasn't legal I would just forward his info to the police. Only had five transactions and each one checked out.

bikerbill · December 13, 2012, 11:36 AM

If I'm selling a gun, I bring a preprinted bill of sale with me, which requires only that I get a DL # and the buyer's signature ... I want to know where that gun is going. Not to be politically incorrect, but would you sell a firearm to some hoodie-wearing bozo with no ID who answered your ad, without having any idea who he/she was? Not me ... that gun can be traced to me through gunshop records and I don't want to be spending money defending myself if I can't show who had the weapon after me ... as somebody said, if you never need the document, good ... if you do, wouldn't you want to have it? The document I use states clearly that the gun is sold as-is, no refunds or guarantee ...

howabouttheiris · December 13, 2012, 11:53 AM

"What is this going to get you in a private sale where I take your cash and hand you a gun?"

As a buyer, I make it clear before we meet that I expect a minimal BOS and offer to bring one to sign. The 2 reasons I can quickly think of are....

1) What stops the seller from reporting it stolen and naming you as a suspect?
2) Some establishment of value for insurance purposes.

dogtown tom · December 13, 2012, 12:01 PM

Those who think a bill of sale insulates them from civil or criminal liability are sadly mistaken. (people will still sue you if they think you have money. Juries will wonder why you were diligent enough to have a bill of sale, yet not investigate the buyers background)

Those who think a bill of sale is "proof" of anything are sadly mistaken. (I just wrote myself a BOS for Interstate 45, so all you Texans should know it's mine now)

Getting the drivers license # of the buyer or seller proves what exactly? (faked DL's are all over, just ask any LEO)

Some of you guys don't recognise freedom when its staring you in the face. If you want to act like a dealer....get a freaking FFL. Then your REQUIRED to have all sorts of documentation.

If you are so paranoid, scared or cautious that you refuse to do a face to face sale of a gun...........take it to your local gun dealer and let him run the sale through his books and then transfer the firearm to the buyer with a 4473 and NICS check.

**Brian Pfleuger** · December 13, 2012, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Juries will wonder why you were diligent enough to have a bill of sale, yet not investigate the buyers background

No they won't.

People get receipts for things all the time. I have no reasonable means of conducting background checks and no reasonable person (nor the law) would require such a thing.

Getting a receipt for a purchase is a normal, every day part of conducting your life.

I get a receipt for a gun that I buy from Bass Pro Shops. I get receipts for the gas I buy from Mobil. I get receipts for groceries, clothes, books, car parts... everything I buy.

Getting one for a gun I bought is completely and utterly normal.

As a matter of fact, if I were on this mythical jury (that there never will be anyway), my question would be "Why DIDN'T he get a receipt? Did he think there was something wrong or did he intentionally buy a stolen gun? Why WOULDN'T he want a paper trail?"

Which is exactly what I'd be wondering about a seller that refused to provide me with a receipt.

Lordy123 · December 13, 2012, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Getting the drivers license # of the buyer or seller proves what exactly? (faked DL's are all over, just ask any LEO)

Most states use a common algorithm for calculating drivers license numbers. The first letter of your last name should be the first letter of your license in most states. Watch for maiden names though. For WI(and quite a few others), the two numbers in between the second and third group are your birth year. The two numbers at the end of the third group are the day of birth.

I can calculate your WI drivers license in my head with only your name, sex, and DOB. Since you can only transfer firearms in your state, I don't think it would be too hard to learn how to spot a fake in your own state.

Depending on your state, you may have DOT "Translucency" triangles in the ID seen by shining a light through the ID. If your state has these just check for them, they are extremely hard to fake. It typically requires printing over a real ID(Unless you have VERY deep pockets to fab your own), and you can't do that with an inkjet in your moms basement; like you can with PVC.

Edit:
I have a copy of the 2011 bar book, If the mods are ok with it I can share the .pdf with everyone. It will have everything you need to spot a fake in your state.

**hogdogs** · December 13, 2012, 12:37 PM

I have no problem showing ID to complete a FTF transaction to verify I meet the residency requirements... And my fingertip will cover my last name when he sees it...

But seller will not write down my info...

How many of you demanding sellers give your DL# & address to the buyer?

How does the buyer have a way to send the law after you when he finds out you sold him a stolen firearm that was used in a murder???

The buyer needs the seller's info more than the seller needs the buyer's info!!!

Brent

shaunpain · December 13, 2012, 12:38 PM

Just follow the laws for your state. I've had to fill out a BOS for every private transfer as per Illinois FOID law. Reading ISP's site, all that is required is that FOIDs are shown and a record of the transfer with firearm model, type, and serial are kept for 10 years. As weird as this is for me to say, having the FOID system kind of takes the guesswork out of private transfers. If they've gone through the hassle to get one, they more than likely wouldn't be willing to give up that right with your gun.

HisDudeness · December 13, 2012, 12:53 PM

Strangely, after starting this thread I happened upon this story...

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...n/#more-177517

This is the part that got me thinking:

"Smirnov is currently serving a life sentence without parole. The gun seller pled guilty to the illegal transfer of a firearm to an out-of-state person, a felony, and was sentenced to one year and a day in prison. Jitka leaves behind her brother and life-long best-friend, plaintiff Alex Vesely, another brother, Pavel Vesely, and her father, Antonin Vesely"

I'm wondering if there are more details behind this transaction elsewhere. The seller pled guilty so his side of the story is most likely lost to oblivion. Was he charged by his state of residence or federally? Both? Obviously stories like this are an extreme rarity but I believe that this adds to the discussion...

Edit: Notice how the seller was sentenced to one year and a day? That extra day was most likely to trigger the permanent loss of his gun rights.

AH.74 · December 13, 2012, 12:54 PM

Quote:

It's proof that I had no reason to believe there was any problem with the transaction and the other party represented it as such.... No record of a transaction is shady.

I don't agree that it's proof of anything. It's a piece of paper, nothing more.

And no record of a transaction is not shady- if it were, the issue would be addressed by law.

I say again- if this were an issue, we would be hearing about it. It's not, so we aren't.

**Brian Pfleuger** · December 13, 2012, 01:03 PM

Every thing shady is addressed by law? Amusing.

AH.74 · December 13, 2012, 01:03 PM

Quote:

I'm wondering if there are more details behind this transaction elsewhere. The seller pled guilty so his side of the story is most likely lost to oblivion. Was he charged by his state of residence or federally? Both? Obviously stories like this are an extreme rarity but I believe that this adds to the discussion...
HisDudeness is online now Report Post

Interesting story- appreciate the link.

Two thoughts- the court case is public record so if someone really wanted to, they could go and look at the documents.

And, it sounds from the info provided that the seller knew he was selling to someone he shouldn't- it's not clear if the buyer is a US citizen, but he clearly was not a resident of the state.

AH.74 · December 13, 2012, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Every thing shady is addressed by law? Amusing.

Don't twist my words. You know what I mean. Private gun transactions are a common and frequent thing. If such transactions without paper trails were "shady" and presented problems they would be addressed by law.

You're better than this. I'm quite disappointed to see you pull that.

**Brian Pfleuger** · December 13, 2012, 01:23 PM

Let's not make it personal.

You said if it was shady it'd be addressed by law. Why would "it" specifically be addressed and other shady things wouldn't?

All kinds of "private" transactions happen every day. Some people want receipts, some people don't care.

Wanting one or not wanting/caring are not shady. Refusing to provide a receipt is shady.

It's such a common, every day, normal part of life that a refusal to provide one is a significant red flag.

I've bought and sold all kinds of things over the years, both with and without receipts. I've been asked for one when I didn't care and I've asked for them when the other person apparently didn't care.

Neither of those is shady. If I ask for one and it's a "No!", it's shady as hell.

zincwarrior · December 13, 2012, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Those who think a bill of sale insulates them from civil or criminal liability are sadly mistaken. (people will still sue you if they think you have money. Juries will wonder why you were diligent enough to have a bill of sale, yet not investigate the buyers background)

Those who think a bill of sale is "proof" of anything are sadly mistaken. (I just wrote myself a BOS for Interstate 45, so all you Texans should know it's mine now)

Getting the drivers license # of the buyer or seller proves what exactly? (faked DL's are all over, just ask any LEO)

Some of you guys don't recognise freedom when its staring you in the face. If you want to act like a dealer....get a freaking FFL. Then your REQUIRED to have all sorts of documentation.

If you are so paranoid, scared or cautious that you refuse to do a face to face sale of a gun...........take it to your local gun dealer and let him run the sale through his books and then transfer the firearm to the buyer with a 4473 and NICS check.

I like the personal attacks. Thats very choice.
Reported.

Ben Towe · December 13, 2012, 03:33 PM

Quote:

If I want a form 4473 tied to my purchase, I can buy a new firearm through my local dealer...

If I want a PRIVATE transaction, I can find a seller who will meet my requirements...

If a private seller wants my DL# and DNA... Sorry but I was lookin' for a gun when I found that'n...

The 4473 is not as innocuous as some may think...

The BATFE will get these forms when the FFL closes his doors and they are not shelved in some dark dank cellar in a government building...

THEY ARE PUT IN THE "SYSTEM"!!!

My returned M-500 is proof... Spent 11 years in an evidense room before the city PD re-ran the numbers prior to sale/destruction after a person (possibly the burglar who stole it) lost it to them following an Ag. Assault charge with it...

Glad I got it back??? CERTAINLY... VERY TELLING OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT'S CAPABILITY TO FOLLOW THE 4473... No doubt in my mind!!!

I am not into conspiracy theories but I prefer to keep some transactions pretty close to the cuff...

Brent

Something I don't understand about this, how did they know it was stolen from you with just the 4473??? It could have changed hands 50 times from the time you bought it until it was stolen. Now if you reported it stolen and gave them the serial numbers then it goes into the NCIC (totally different from NICS) stolen weapons database where it remains indefinitely until it is recovered. Even if ATF had your 4473 from where you purchased the gun it is highly improbable that it would have be entered into the NCIC database by ATF of their own accord. It would make the database unusable. Any weapon that was bought at a now defunct store would pop as a stolen weapon if such was the case.

View Poll Results: Do You Require a Bill of Sale for Private Transactions?
Yes	37	52.86%
No	33	47.14%
Voters: 70. You may not vote on this poll

December 12, 2012, 07:37 PM	#26
big_bad_kitty Member Join Date: April 22, 2010 Posts: 72	I am an FFL. I am also an attorney. If someone asks me to fill out anything I respond with we will just run it through my A&D book. That way I have all the info I need to cover myself and is nothing more than they were asking of me. It has been almost three years since ATF has looked at my A&D book and I am due for a renewal inspection mid year in 2013. All firearms are either in my book or done with a showing of my CHL and a handshake. If there needs to be something in writing, I call the Sheriff's office while in my office to run the serial numbers. If someone is hung up on getting my info, there is usually something wrong with the deal anyway. JMHO and the way I handle my business. __________________ NRA Endowment Life Member - TX Concealed Handgun Instructor Experience - What you get when you don't get what you wanted! texasconcealedhandguninstructor.com

December 12, 2012, 09:00 PM	#27
Joe_Pike Senior Member Join Date: December 30, 2010 Posts: 729	The first couple of times I didn't but then I started to. It's not in any way required but it makes me feel better. If I know the person I don't worry about it, though. __________________ Stay Groovy

December 13, 2012, 12:36 AM	#29
hogdogs Staff Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 10,684	If I want a form 4473 tied to my purchase, I can buy a new firearm through my local dealer... If I want a PRIVATE transaction, I can find a seller who will meet my requirements... If a private seller wants my DL# and DNA... Sorry but I was lookin' for a gun when I found that'n... The 4473 is not as innocuous as some may think... The BATFE will get these forms when the FFL closes his doors and they are not shelved in some dark dank cellar in a government building... THEY ARE PUT IN THE "SYSTEM"!!! My returned M-500 is proof... Spent 11 years in an evidense room before the city PD re-ran the numbers prior to sale/destruction after a person (possibly the burglar who stole it) lost it to them following an Ag. Assault charge with it... Glad I got it back??? CERTAINLY... VERY TELLING OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT'S CAPABILITY TO FOLLOW THE 4473... No doubt in my mind!!! I am not into conspiracy theories but I prefer to keep some transactions pretty close to the cuff... Brent Brent __________________ Finally have designs going up in the Hogdogs Outdoor Apparel online store. http://www.cafepress.com/hogdogsoutdoorapparel Thanks for lookin'...

December 13, 2012, 10:14 AM	#34
Brian Pfleuger Staff Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Central, Southern NY, USA Posts: 14,447	Someone is going to sell you a gun so they can come and rob you? I love that argument. Doesn't it seem a tad more likely, if we're making up fantasies, that they would rob the guy from whom they GOT the gun? I mean, you're going to rob the guy who USED TO have a gun or the guy who NOW has one? Better yet, wouldn't they USE the gun that they bought from the other guy, to rob HIM. I mean, he's unarmed now and they're NOT, perfect target. He's defenseless AND you can steal back the money that you just paid him for the gun! Why would they SELL their best robbery tool?! Come on. There's a certain level of caution that crosses into paranoia. If the guy wants to rob you, a piece of paper with NOTHING but your NAME on it isn't going to help. His thug buddies that he brought to case the transaction can follow you home. __________________ Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza. --- You do not HAVE a soul. You ARE a soul. You HAVE a body. -C.S. Lewis He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose. -Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.

December 13, 2012, 12:26 AM	#28
medalguy Senior Member Join Date: August 31, 2009 Location: New Mexico Posts: 945	In Texas, all that's required of the seller is that he not have any reason to believe that the buyer is a prohibited person. That's a pretty simple requirement, and lacking that belief, I'd not hesitate to sell a gun to anyone whom I had no reason to bellieve was a prohibited person. No BOS required and none given. I sure as heck don't want to give my personal information to a complete stranger in a parking lot. No siree.

December 13, 2012, 09:37 AM	#31
zincwarrior Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2011 Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex Posts: 871	I respect that. In return, anyone who refuses a BOS makes me suspicious. If you won't abide by the requirements to purchase a used car, I surely wouldn't sell you a firearm. Your mielage may vary, and thats fine by me too.

December 13, 2012, 10:06 AM	#33
mitchntx Senior Member Join Date: June 19, 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 335	If you want to covertly act that way, then I certainly can't stop you. But those actions have nothing to do with the sale. Casing a victim happens all the time, I suspect. But I don't have to freely and willingly give you a starting point and intel on my access to disposable income and, if I'm buying one, the probability I own several guns. Thieves are sneaky. I wouldn't think it odd that someone with intentions less than good would invest in a gun in order to sell it to gather intel. Good discussion.

December 13, 2012, 11:13 AM	#35
Lordy123 Member Join Date: June 6, 2011 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 64	I usually make sure their license is real, and take down the number. I'll ask if they're a resident, and if they've ever been convicted of a felony. I'll check later on WI circuit court access or criminalsearches.com, if I thought the buyer wasn't legal I would just forward his info to the police. Only had five transactions and each one checked out.

December 13, 2012, 11:36 AM	#36
bikerbill Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2007 Location: Lago Vista TX Posts: 2,130	If I'm selling a gun, I bring a preprinted bill of sale with me, which requires only that I get a DL # and the buyer's signature ... I want to know where that gun is going. Not to be politically incorrect, but would you sell a firearm to some hoodie-wearing bozo with no ID who answered your ad, without having any idea who he/she was? Not me ... that gun can be traced to me through gunshop records and I don't want to be spending money defending myself if I can't show who had the weapon after me ... as somebody said, if you never need the document, good ... if you do, wouldn't you want to have it? The document I use states clearly that the gun is sold as-is, no refunds or guarantee ... __________________ "The gun has been called the great equalizer ... It insures that the people are the equal of their government whenever that government forgets that it is servant and not master of the governed." --Ronald Reagan

December 13, 2012, 11:53 AM	#37
howabouttheiris Member Join Date: April 22, 2012 Posts: 37	"What is this going to get you in a private sale where I take your cash and hand you a gun?" As a buyer, I make it clear before we meet that I expect a minimal BOS and offer to bring one to sign. The 2 reasons I can quickly think of are.... 1) What stops the seller from reporting it stolen and naming you as a suspect? 2) Some establishment of value for insurance purposes.

December 13, 2012, 12:01 PM	#38
dogtown tom Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2006 Location: Plano, Texas Posts: 1,274	Some of you guys don't recognise freedom when its staring you in the face. Those who think a bill of sale insulates them from civil or criminal liability are sadly mistaken. (people will still sue you if they think you have money. Juries will wonder why you were diligent enough to have a bill of sale, yet not investigate the buyers background) Those who think a bill of sale is "proof" of anything are sadly mistaken. (I just wrote myself a BOS for Interstate 45, so all you Texans should know it's mine now) Getting the drivers license # of the buyer or seller proves what exactly? (faked DL's are all over, just ask any LEO) Some of you guys don't recognise freedom when its staring you in the face. If you want to act like a dealer....get a freaking FFL. Then your REQUIRED to have all sorts of documentation. If you are so paranoid, scared or cautious that you refuse to do a face to face sale of a gun...........take it to your local gun dealer and let him run the sale through his books and then transfer the firearm to the buyer with a 4473 and NICS check. __________________ Need a FFL in north Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers)

December 13, 2012, 12:37 PM	#41
hogdogs Staff Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 10,684	I have no problem *showing* ID to complete a FTF transaction to verify I meet the residency requirements... And my fingertip will cover my last name when he sees it... But seller will not write down my info... How many of you demanding sellers give your DL# & address to the buyer? How does the buyer have a way to send the law after you when he finds out you sold him a stolen firearm that was used in a murder??? The buyer needs the seller's info more than the seller needs the buyer's info!!! Brent __________________ Finally have designs going up in the Hogdogs Outdoor Apparel online store. http://www.cafepress.com/hogdogsoutdoorapparel Thanks for lookin'...

December 13, 2012, 12:38 PM	#42
shaunpain Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2008 Location: Chicago Posts: 425	Just follow the laws for your state. I've had to fill out a BOS for every private transfer as per Illinois FOID law. Reading ISP's site, all that is required is that FOIDs are shown and a record of the transfer with firearm model, type, and serial are kept for 10 years. As weird as this is for me to say, having the FOID system kind of takes the guesswork out of private transfers. If they've gone through the hassle to get one, they more than likely wouldn't be willing to give up that right with your gun. __________________ "Shut up, crime!"

December 13, 2012, 12:53 PM	#43
HisDudeness Member Join Date: March 27, 2012 Posts: 64	Strangely, after starting this thread I happened upon this story... http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...n/#more-177517 This is the part that got me thinking: "Smirnov is currently serving a life sentence without parole. The gun seller pled guilty to the illegal transfer of a firearm to an out-of-state person, a felony, and was sentenced to one year and a day in prison. Jitka leaves behind her brother and life-long best-friend, plaintiff Alex Vesely, another brother, Pavel Vesely, and her father, Antonin Vesely" I'm wondering if there are more details behind this transaction elsewhere. The seller pled guilty so his side of the story is most likely lost to oblivion. Was he charged by his state of residence or federally? Both? Obviously stories like this are an extreme rarity but I believe that this adds to the discussion... Edit: Notice how the seller was sentenced to one year and a day? That extra day was most likely to trigger the permanent loss of his gun rights. Last edited by HisDudeness; December 13, 2012 at 01:03 PM.

December 13, 2012, 01:03 PM	#45
Brian Pfleuger Staff Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Central, Southern NY, USA Posts: 14,447	Every thing shady is addressed by law? Amusing. __________________ Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza. --- You do not HAVE a soul. You ARE a soul. You HAVE a body. -C.S. Lewis He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose. -Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.

December 13, 2012, 01:23 PM	#48
Brian Pfleuger Staff Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Central, Southern NY, USA Posts: 14,447	Let's not make it personal. You said if it was shady it'd be addressed by law. Why would "it" specifically be addressed and other shady things wouldn't? All kinds of "private" transactions happen every day. Some people want receipts, some people don't care. Wanting one or not wanting/caring are not shady. Refusing to provide a receipt is shady. It's such a common, every day, normal part of life that a refusal to provide one is a significant red flag. I've bought and sold all kinds of things over the years, both with and without receipts. I've been asked for one when I didn't care and I've asked for them when the other person apparently didn't care. Neither of those is shady. If I ask for one and it's a "No!", it's shady as hell. __________________ Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza. --- You do not HAVE a soul. You ARE a soul. You HAVE a body. -C.S. Lewis He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose. -Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.