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Old December 13, 2012, 09:47 AM   #51
JimDandy
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I heard they made a movie about him...
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Old December 13, 2012, 10:06 AM   #52
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my answer is none.
I have seen more than one village idiot kill themselves by cleaning a loaded 22lr, possibly the most under powered round available in firearms. I would trust every centerfire round all the way down to 204 ruger to do the job.
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Old December 13, 2012, 10:28 AM   #53
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Quote:
I have seen more than one village idiot kill themselves by cleaning a loaded 22l
How is this relevant?
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Old December 13, 2012, 10:47 AM   #54
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Id trust any centerfire with the right ammo, but certain bullet types is a different matter. Ive seen several deer hit with (just for example) 30-30 lead tip bullets that go right through with no damage and keep going for several minutes, also same goes for 35 whelen and other calibers like these. Low velocity, lead tips that have minimal expansion will leave an intruder on there feet I think
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Old December 13, 2012, 01:00 PM   #55
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With a 223 varmint bullet you will turn your attacker's insides into garbage... One bullet.
And with my 45 if I hit a boogerman in the thumb the shock will be so bad it will cause a brain aneurism and massive heart failure due to the shock. Yeah I heard the stories, it still comes down to what you shoot best and where you hit him. my 4'10" 85 pound granny who was an expert with her iron sighted Henry 22 and her Win 94 30-30 is going to trump Doofus with his semi auto 30-06 with muzzle brake, laser, mag light, bayonet and 12X50 scope. Even if Doofus has loaded Double Uber Ultra High velocity tungsten core tank killer bullets.
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Old December 13, 2012, 01:17 PM   #56
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Quote:
. Ive seen several deer hit with (just for example) 30-30 lead tip bullets that go right through with no damage and keep going for several minutes, also same goes for 35 whelen and other calibers like these. Low velocity, lead tips that have minimal expansion will leave an intruder on there feet I think
This is where the 30 30 got a bad reputation with some hunters. A slower bullet needs a thinner jacket to expand properly. The 30 30 has plenty of energy to take a deer, or stop an attacker. If the manufacture used the same jacket thickness for a 30 30 as they did for a 06, it wouldn't expand near as well.

Actually a good defense round would be a double barrel shotgun with cut shells. They perform like a glazer using all the energy in the attacker.
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Old December 13, 2012, 05:17 PM   #57
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That's a ba 30 30 if it kept going for several minutes after passing through a deer. :-))
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Old December 13, 2012, 08:57 PM   #58
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Quote:
I have seen more than one village idiot kill themselves by cleaning a loaded 22lr
How is this relevant?
it is relevant because 22lr has less than a quarter of the energy as it's nearest centerfire competitor the 22 hornet. if Bubba can blow his own brains out with a 22lr then what do you think the likelihood of being able to stop BG from harming your family with a 22 hornet? pretty darn good if you ask me. I always love these discussions because you always end up with the following absolute truths:

1. every person that breaks into your home is going to be a 300 pound body building crack addict wearing kevlar.

2. the roughly half million combatants that have died while engaged in hostilities against the US since the adoption of the M16 have all been tragic cases of friendly fire apparently since the M16 is a horribly underpowered rifle, incapable of taking life.

3. the word "tactical" is used to describe everything from flipping on a lightswitch to changing your underwear.

4. some kid that is barely out of highschool and never seen live combat will rant about how our military is so poorly equipped and lament the "good ole days" where we had "man killer" guns instead of "man wounder" guns.

5. we will all agree that bacon is a delicious accompaniment to breakfast lunch and dinner.

6. thread will be reduced to name calling and bitter arguments(usually between 2 individuals) that will eventually cause this thread to be closed.

this year alone I have seen deer drop from horrible gut shots with so called under powered rounds and I have seen textbook kill shots with 300 magnums that got away. using healthy animals that have developed the ability to secrete large amounts of adrenaline at the slightest sign of trouble is not an acceptable analog to an unhealthy human specimen that has destroyed their body with drugs so I laugh at all the people that think that a drug addict rifling through your stuff is not going to drop if hit by a bullet of any size.
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Old December 13, 2012, 09:06 PM   #59
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tahunua001, thank you for clearing that up.
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Old December 13, 2012, 09:13 PM   #60
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Just to make a point Id feel safe holding my Sig 1911 22lr in my hand with someone coming through the door.
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Old December 13, 2012, 09:55 PM   #61
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I kinda took this thread's intent in a different direction as in "What is overkill?". What would create other risks or potential issues such as high penetration or penetration without a chance for expansion or creating the immediate damage needed or being typically chambered in weapons unwieldy in close quarters.
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Old December 14, 2012, 06:15 PM   #62
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There is nothing wrong with a rifle in 44 Mag if its short enough and this one is short enough.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg HD 44.jpg (204.9 KB, 14 views)
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Old December 15, 2012, 07:26 AM   #63
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Ozzieman-exactly. I don't think anyone would find those unwieldy even in a 10x10 room and they can be loaded not to over penetrate. Just my opinion.
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Old December 15, 2012, 07:55 AM   #64
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I wouldn't trust these....


MIL-SURP AMMO 308 WIN 10g PLASTIC BULLET
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Old December 15, 2012, 12:11 PM   #65
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CUMMON Sport45. They're blue. Isn't that what the U.N. uses?
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Old December 15, 2012, 04:54 PM   #66
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Sport....if those are accurate out to 300 meters like it says then they have a good bit of velocity behind them.... I would still take them.

The only problem is that they won't cycle in a semi-automatic rifle.
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Old December 15, 2012, 09:48 PM   #67
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They'd be fun, but I still wouldn't trust them for defense. With a 10gr plastic bullet it's hard to imagine much potential for penetration.
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Old December 17, 2012, 12:34 PM   #68
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That's very true. I would like to try a couple just to see how they performed though
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Old December 17, 2012, 01:21 PM   #69
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Among other possible reasons for the Chinese quilted uniform turning .30 Carbine bullets myth is the historical account of Andrew Jacksons duel with a crack shot.
Jackson knew he couldn't out shoot the other man and was likely to be hit before he could return fire, so he wore a loose heavy cloak to obscure his body position and stance.
When the opponent fired at what seemed to be center mass he scored only a serious flesh wound rather than a fatal wound. Jackson then calmly took his time and drilled the man dead center.

Bulky clothing on a skinny soldier could result in bullet passing through the uniform jacket without touching flesh, or only grazing wounds.
Use of opium before going into battle could also deaden the pain of relatively minor wounds.

Since some effective body armor was available to the Chinese, thats another factor to consider.

Heres some info on body armor available during WW2.
http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksd.../chapter11.htm
Besides Soviet surplus breastplates and armor left behind by the Japanese there'd be many U S flak vests taken from U S casualties and prisoners.

Silk waste packing in those quilted jackets would also offer some resistence to projectiles.

I don't know of any centerfire rifle cartridge other than the short lived .22 WCF and the various European rook rifle and velo dog cartridges adapted to rifles that could not produce a fatal wound at close range.

PS
Tests of the plastic 7.62 bullets used by the U S Army showed they would penetrate an automobile fender and produced wounds similar to a .357 magnum hollow point.

Last edited by Rainbow Demon; December 17, 2012 at 01:43 PM.
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Old December 17, 2012, 03:50 PM   #70
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I would tend to guess....that some battlefield shooting distances in the Korean War, would tend to make the 30 carbine round quite underpowered.

Otherwise...the stories of the carbine being weak in Korea are true. "From the Army Ord Board and the small arms lab backed up by the White Lab ---They concluded that the WW-2 ammo that had a tropical humidity inhibiter, had degraded the powder and a 0 degree Farh. and below temps, it would go off around 650 fps out of a 16 inch M-2, with a huge share of the rifle charge not lighting off and clogging up the action and its gas tappets."

www.gunsamerica.com/Search.aspx?t=Ammo:30 Carbine Robertso
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Old December 17, 2012, 04:39 PM   #71
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Thats sounds reasonable, not much more punch than a pocket pistol with that velocity.
I have fired old milsurp ammo of various sorts, not .30 carbine, that showed decreased muzzle velocity and weak report when temps were in the 20's F.
Weak pin strke due to congealed oil would add to ignition problems.
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Old December 17, 2012, 05:02 PM   #72
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It isn't post ignition performance that would keep me from picking a centerfire cartridge, it's the fact that .30 carbine ammo in particular and 7.62x39 , with their high dud count, absolutely leave me cold.
When I drop the hammer to blow something to hell, I hate having to book a later flight. I want positive ignition. And there's another reason to reload.
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Old December 18, 2012, 12:55 AM   #73
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I want positive ignition. And there's another reason to reload.
I prefer not to use commercial sporting ammo or reloads in a milspec autoloader.
So far I've had no ADs but came close to a slamfire with a Yugo SKS I had for awhile, with the milspec primer deeply indented, a common commercial primer would no doubt have gone off. Then theres the necessary neck tension and added grip of milspec sealants that prevent bullets from being jammed back into the case, I have several commercial sporting 7.62x39 cartridges with just that problem in my junk box. I'll be using the inertial puller on these later to reseat the bullets. I'll use the rest of that box as single loads only.
It was pure luck that I noticed the difference in feel when racking these in, otherwise I might be looking for a new bolt at the very least.

Staked primers are another plus of milsurp ammo vs commercial ammo.

Some milspec autoloaders may gobble up any brand with no problems, but others are much safer if only milspec ammo is used.
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Old December 18, 2012, 01:01 AM   #74
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I would be happy with just about any centerfire rifle.
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Old December 18, 2012, 01:06 AM   #75
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Murphy carried a carbine as that was the "issued weapon for officers". My uncle was issued a carbine as a Glider Pilot. He told me he took a M-1 Rifle and ammo from the first dead GI he found.
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