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Old October 30, 2008, 10:32 AM   #1
balazona
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Rotating vs Tilting barrel locking system

hi
which one is best regarding accuracy,reliability and durability.ur comments plz.
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Old October 30, 2008, 11:05 AM   #2
Ivory Grips
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All other factors being equal, I'd give the edge in accuracy to the rotating bbl. Unlike the tilting bbl. the rotating bbl can be fitted tighter at the muzzle end, allowing tighter lockup during battery.
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Old October 30, 2008, 12:33 PM   #3
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It certainly depends on the gun as well as barrel design.

I've had a Beretta PX4 in 9mm using the rotating barrel for a year. I shoot it weekly along with other locking barrel guns.

It has never had a malfunction and is amazingly accurate with a pretty nice trigger. However, my S&W 952-2 target pistol has a edge in accuracy and trigger.

That said, my PX4 is definitely my SHTF weapon of choice.
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Old October 30, 2008, 07:20 PM   #4
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Typically the edge goes to the rotating barrel. This is what made the PX4 such a nice shooter. Ironically, the new PX4 sub-compact, which does not have the rotating barrel, is a BETTER shooter than the standard PX4. Beretta just flared the end of the PX4 SC's barrel for a nice tight fit.
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Old October 30, 2008, 07:56 PM   #5
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Stoger makes the all metal Baretta clone for them in Turkey.
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Old October 30, 2008, 08:42 PM   #6
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A 1911 with proper lockup should be tighter than a rotating barrel gun. When the barrel is locked up there can't be any movement at all, the front of the barrel is tight at the top of the (closely fitted) bushing and the locking lugs are bound to the slide lugs, the bottom lugs are tight to the slidestop pin.
Granted, few 1911's are that tight, but when they are the barrel is very rigid, repeatably, while the rotating barrel has to have at least some rotational clearance. Just being the odd guy out here.
I think it's a straw dog argument that a "fixed" barrel like a Ruger target .22 (front and rear sights fixed relative to barrel at all times) has to be more accurate. More likely to? Yes, nothing to loosen up.
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Old October 30, 2008, 08:47 PM   #7
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Typically the edge goes to the rotating barrel. This is what made the PX4 such a nice shooter. Ironically, the new PX4 sub-compact, which does not have the rotating barrel, is a BETTER shooter than the standard PX4. Beretta just flared the end of the PX4 SC's barrel for a nice tight fit.
i keep hearing this, but i NEED to judge for myself!

i have many many pistols, but my px4 is absolutely my go-to gun
i also shoot in a small local pistol league weekly, i use my px4 for that too

accuracy wise, the rotating barrel is incredibly tight which i'm sure helps greatly
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Old October 30, 2008, 10:56 PM   #8
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I said that few 1911's are as tight as what I was comparing a rotating barreled pistol to, now I'm not so sure. I checked all of mine, they are all tight when in battery. Three points at the back (Top of barrel lugs area #1, both lower lugs #'s 2 and 3) and one at the front where the top of the barrel is tight against the bushing. I suspect now that most 1911's are as tight as these unless they are shot loose, like after 100K rounds.
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Old October 30, 2008, 11:21 PM   #9
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Typically the edge goes to the rotating barrel.
SIG 210.

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Old October 30, 2008, 11:28 PM   #10
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Granted, few 1911's are that tight, but when they are the barrel is very rigid, repeatably, while the rotating barrel has to have at least some rotational clearance.
Why would this clearance have to exceed the tilting clearance at the muzzle end of the Browning design? Actually, a very slight rearward taper is all you need to accommodate a nil clearance in either case. That is the principle behind conlcal bushings used to accurize Berettas, whose barrels admittedly neither tilt nor rotate.
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Old October 31, 2008, 08:03 AM   #11
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With either being properly made, I doubt you could find a discernible difference in performance.
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Old October 31, 2008, 09:13 AM   #12
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Fixed barrel designs are more accurate still!
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Old October 31, 2008, 11:30 AM   #13
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It's not a matter of how tight a barrel is in lock up, but how consistent a barrel returns to the same place after cycling. Since the fixed barrel of a blowback pistol never moves it has the greatest chance of being the most accurate. That is why the .22lr semi-auto pistols can be so accurate.
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Old October 31, 2008, 02:45 PM   #14
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That is why the .22lr semi-auto pistols can be so accurate.
The fixed barrel design is very accurate in many other calibers as well...there are plenty of extremely accurate fixed barrel .32's, .380's, and 9mm's. And they can be very quite inexpensive and extremely reliable feeders as well.
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Old October 31, 2008, 08:46 PM   #15
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"It's not a matter of how tight a barrel is in lock up, but how consistent a barrel returns to the same place after cycling. Since the fixed barrel of a blowback pistol never moves it has the greatest chance of being the most accurate. That is why the .22lr semi-auto pistols can be so accurate."

The barrel on my Benelli is fixed, but the slide has both front and rear sights attached to it, and the slide may or may not be in exactly the same relative position for each shot.
With a pistol that has the sights attached to the barrel, as in an artillery Luger (for instance) the sights can't move relative to the axis of the bore while a standard P08 has some movement built into the rear sight (I'm talking just sights and barrel, not trigger or anything else). A Ruger target .22 is a good example as the rear and front sights never move. In practice a Colt target .22 with the rear sight attached to a moving bolt may be more accurate but it would seem (To me at least) to be in spite of the moving sight.
If it's got a moving slide with sights attached some means would have to be used to ensure that the sights are in the same place relative to the bore, and the 1911 does a great job of that.
I guess what I keep thinking is that just because the barrel doesn't move that's no guarantee that the sights won't move, and the rotating barrel designs I've seen don't make the sight alignment any surer than a well locked up swinging barrel design. But heck, maybe I'm wrong.
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Old November 1, 2008, 03:19 PM   #16
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Sights allow the shooter to make use of the accuracy of the firearm but have absolutely nothing to do with the accuracy a firearm produces.
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Old November 1, 2008, 06:35 PM   #17
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I'm not sure it matters which design is more accurate; which pistol do you shoot better with? What pistol fits your hand well and allows you to be the most consistent with each shot and works well with the ammo you've selected. I've had a PX4 and Stoeger Cougar....the PX4 was very accurate for me but the Cougar was the worst I've shot even off of a bench rest. I doubt it was a design flaw....just a stinker of the assembly line. Neither one could match the accuracy of my Hi powers though (for me).

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Old November 2, 2008, 01:06 AM   #18
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Accuracy depends on the shooter more than the weapon. From a rest...the rotating barrel is far more accurate than the tilt back...that is just a fact. This Stoeger Cougar is far more accurate than me...

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Old November 2, 2008, 08:06 AM   #19
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From a rest...the rotating barrel is far more accurate than the tilt back...that is just a fact. This Stoeger Cougar is far more accurate than me...
That's ridiculous. It is far from a "fact" but I would enjoy seeing your evidence. You do have some evidence of this "fact", right?

The day your Cougar out shoots something... oh, like this tilt locking pistol:



...I'll eat my shoe.
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Old November 9, 2008, 02:53 PM   #20
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As I stated...and this is fact: Accuracy is more dependent upon the shooter than the weapon itself...agree?

As for the rotating barrel I read the below statement...many, many more to be found on the internet if you just take some time to research...and decided to test it out for myself. Since then...I've sold my "tilt-back" .45

I believe the main advantage is accuracy potential.

"In a normal Browning action, the barrel is moving around a lot as the action cycles. Typically it moves back with the slide, then unlocks and rotates downward to pick up the next round. Then it moves up and forward again. It is good tight tolerances that keep it coming back to exactly where it started shot after shot.

With a rotating barrel, the barrel can be kept on a fixed axis and alignment for the entire recoil cycle. As the slide works, the barrel simply spins in place. Or in other words, a rotating barrel pistol always has the barrel pointed in the same direction, but a more conventional design does not. This should mean better shot to shot accuracy for the rotating barrel pistol."

Bottom line...accuracy is in the shooter. There are some with "fixed" barrel 22's that are far more accurate than rotating barrels...
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Old November 9, 2008, 03:34 PM   #21
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Accuracy is more dependent upon the shooter than the weapon itself...agree?....I believe the main advantage is accuracy potential.
Agreed. All other factors being equal (ie the shooter's ability), I believe a rotating barrel will have more "accuaracy potential" than a tilting-barrel barrel, and a fixed barrel will have more accuracy potential than a rotating barrel.
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Old November 9, 2008, 07:29 PM   #22
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I disagree. Every rotating barrel pistol I've seen has been built to relatively loose tolerances. If it were super snug, it wouldn't be able to reliably function. They have slop just as most Browning designs do. Have either worked on by a competent gunsmith and you will have two totally different machines - hence my Custom Shop 1911.

How many Beretta Cougars do you see in Bullseye competition? Why do you think that is?
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Old November 9, 2008, 07:51 PM   #23
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As I stated...and this is fact: Accuracy is more dependent upon the shooter than the weapon itself...agree? I believe the main advantage is accuracy potential.
Yes, but that's not the context of the thread. I don't see anywhere stated by the OP if YOU shoot more accurately with said design.

Quote:
As for the rotating barrel I read the below statement...many, many more to be found on the internet if you just take some time to research...and decided to test it out for myself. Since then...I've sold my "tilt-back" .45
Then I guess your "accuracy potential" is anectdotal evidence. What works for you doesn't claim fact.

If so, then place your Cougar and Sturm's TRP in a Ransom Rest and pick your favorite load. Fire five at 25 and I'll be glad to walk home with my wallet a bit fatter...
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Old November 9, 2008, 08:01 PM   #24
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Thanks Tuttle, you're right - he would lose his money.

The beauty of a tilt locking design is that it can be absolutely so tight at lock-up that you can not, by hand, move any of the components without tools. But once it moves just 1/8th of an inch out of battery it's completely loose and able to function with superb reliability.

The barrel on any properly made 1911 locks up EXACTLY the same way each time. It will have absolutely ZERO play anywhere in the upper half (the most critical). To argue you can lock up tighter than zero play is ludicrous... and that's exactly what you get with SA Custom, Brown, Les Baer, Wilson, etc.
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Old November 11, 2008, 02:24 AM   #25
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A purely opinionated...subjective coment. I'd bet money that my stock 9mm cougar could out perform any stock 1911. It sure out shot my government model. A properly made 1911? Really. Perhaps that is why you had to spend so much money augumenting it...correct? Sheesh. Stock 1911 pistols are crap. That is why so many of you have to have it gunsmithed and customized. Few own/keep/operate a stock 1911 for that very reason. I spent 22 years in the Army and the best thing that Uncle Sam ever did was replace that paper weight. Flame on.
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