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Old December 1, 2012, 04:10 PM   #1
spacecoast
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My first Bullseye 800!

At our local Bullseye competition this morning I was able to put together my first ever 800+ score (actually 801). Three of the last four outings with this iron-sighted gun (my S&W 17-5 with 6" barrel, pictured below) had resulted in scores in the 790s, including a 799, and several times I thought I had 800 "in the bag" only to falter and fall short in the Rapid Fire match. This was the 26th time I have used this gun in a match since I bought it in January 2011 and it has become my favorite due to its light, smooth trigger (I replaced the main and rebound springs).

Today's event was not without some drama. I was in a strong position for 800+ after the slow fire stage with an aggregate score of 257 (85, 84 and 88), my best ever by several points. After a mediocre National Match Timed Fire score of 90 (during which I made a sight adjustment), I was doing well after the first string in National Match rapid fire. The second string also went well, but when I looked in my scope following the string I saw that the shooter next to me had accidentally cross-fired the string and I had 15 shots on my target! I thought I would have a chance to refire those two strings, but was informed that according to the rules I had to take the score of the ten lowest shots on my target. Fortunately, the shooter making the mistake was doing alright himself and it only cost me 7 or 8 points. Five 10s were replaced with 7s, 8s and 9s and I had a score of only 85 for NM Rapid Fire, not exactly a great way to get to 800. Arrrgghhh...

I was still a bit shell-shocked for the first half of the Timed Fire match and could only manage a 90. At that point, I needed to average almost 93 in the remaining three segments (one Timed and two Rapid) in order to make it to 800. I was able to pull it together and scored 93, 92 and 94. Finishing strong is a bit uncharacteristic for me so maybe the first Rapid Fire setback was just what I needed to focus and get over the 800 barrier.

In the followup centerfire match, I scored a 770 with my 5" 625-3, also with iron sights, my highest so far with that gun, so it was a very satisfying morning of shooting. I highly recommend Bullseye shooting, I've been doing it for 26 months now and it's exciting to see steady overall improvement with a variety of guns.


Last edited by spacecoast; December 1, 2012 at 07:03 PM.
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Old December 6, 2012, 05:14 AM   #2
darkgael
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Yep

You are doing well shooting an iron sighted revolver.
Have you considered starting of the road to your Distinguished Pistol badge?
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Old December 6, 2012, 01:30 PM   #3
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Congrats. It's great to hear you're doing so well. And with a revolver, too. Gives me warm fuzzies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spacecoast
I thought I would have a chance to refire those two strings, but was informed that according to the rules I had to take the score of the ten lowest shots on my target.
Man, that's a rough rule, particularly since it's not the shooter's fault. Kudos to you for keeping your head together, though.
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Old December 6, 2012, 03:02 PM   #4
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According to NRA Conventional Pistol Rule 14.10 you should have been given the option of accepting the 10 lowest scoring hits or shooting the targets over.
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Old December 7, 2012, 01:33 PM   #5
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Quote:
you should have been given the option of accepting the 10 lowest scoring hits or shooting the targets over.
Flyfish... the guys who were there know the rule book well and claimed that if I elected to shoot over, I would have to accept the lower of the two scores (which in itself makes no sense). I will check it out and talk to them about it. It's hard to say what would have happened had I done that, but had I only made 798 or 799 I probably would have felt a bit more bruised about it.

Quote:
Have you considered starting of the road to your Distinguished Pistol badge?
Thanks, I did the NRA "league" thing last year for a prescribed number of weeks and made Sharpshooter status. How does the DP program differ from that?

Quote:
Congrats. It's great to hear you're doing so well. And with a revolver, too. Gives me warm fuzzies.
Thanks, I actually thought I could get to 800 a year or so ago, but could never put it all together in a single match. When I would shoot well in Slow Fire, I would fall apart in Timed/Rapid Fire or vice versa. I am resisting the temptation to go to a red dot because I still see OK and I think the iron sights impose more demands on my skills. And... because I am just plain stubborn. My immediate goal is 810, theoretically I could have done it several times already... theoretically.

Last edited by spacecoast; December 7, 2012 at 02:27 PM.
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Old December 7, 2012, 02:40 PM   #6
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Quote:
Flyfish... the guys who were there know the rule book well and claimed that if I elected to shoot over, I would have to accept the lower of the two scores (which in itself makes no sense). I will check it out and talk to them about it. It's hard to say what would have happened had I done that, but had I only made 798 or 799 I probably would have felt a bit more bruised about it.
Nope, they're wrong about that. You do have to accept the lower of two scores, but it's not the lower of the new score vs. the old score because the old score is based on the 10 lowest hits. Rule 14.10(e) is very clear: if you choose to shoot a new target and that new target happens to score higher than the 10 HIGHEST hits on the old target (the one with the extra shots), then you have to take the lower of the two scores, i.e. either the refired target or the old target, but scored using the 10 highest hits. They're apparently saying that the new target is compared to the score of the 10 LOWEST hits on the old target, and that's just wrong. The rules are available on-line - check it out for yourself.

http://www.nrahq.org/compete/RuleBoo.../pst-index.pdf
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Old December 7, 2012, 02:50 PM   #7
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Excellent! Thanks for the info, I will pass this on.
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Old December 7, 2012, 07:59 PM   #8
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duplicate
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Old December 7, 2012, 08:02 PM   #9
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I salute you, you done good. Now the frustrating part, 850 is next You know you gotta climb that hill. I feel a distinguished medal coming in the near future if you keep this up. What is your 2700 score if you don't mind my asking.
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Old December 8, 2012, 12:55 AM   #10
ltc444
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Outstanding shooting.

I once fired a match and inadvertently fired an X on the target of the lane to my right. It was a team mate so I told him of the error and he fired a 9 on my target. He ended with 100 on that string and I got 99. good buddy?

Keep shooting.
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Old December 8, 2012, 08:59 AM   #11
spacecoast
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Quote:
What is your 2700 score if you don't mind my asking.
Thanks Old Grump, I've never shot a real 2700 match. The best I've done in an 1800 match is 1571 (last week's 801 + 770 centerfire revolver, my 625-3). I think 2700 (3 matches in a row) would be really taxing, even at the end of 1800 I'm tired. My best ever centerfire score is 784 with my 629-4 Classic DX (shooting .44 specials). I love that gun, and I shoot it with the stock springs.
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Old December 8, 2012, 03:38 PM   #12
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Tiring is a 2700 one day and a 3600 the next day when they add the hardball match at the end of the day. Anybody who sticks around for the second day and is still shooting good is a person in good shape, no arm chair cowboys in that crowd. I couldn't do it anymore but it used to be a lot of fun. Get your hiking boots on and do some road work and you will find as your stamina increases your scores at the end of the session will still be as good as they were in the middle of the match. Easier to keep your concentration on that sight if you aren't fighting to keep your gun up and suffer from leg weariness.

Love the 44 special, to me it's like shooting the 22 but the hole is bigger. Just keep up the good work.
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Old December 8, 2012, 08:00 PM   #13
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Distinguished

About the "distinguished" badges. There are two similar programs which award excellence in shooting and are beyond the normal NRA classification system.
One is the CMP Distiguished pistol competition, also called Service Pistol "Leg" matches; the other is the NRA Distinguished Revolver Program.
You can check the revolver program at this link:
http://www.nrahq.org/compete/dept-pistol.asp
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Old December 9, 2012, 03:11 AM   #14
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Quote:
...it's not the lower of the new score vs. the old score because the old score is based on the 10 lowest hits.

...you have to take the lower of ... the refired target or the old target, but scored using the 10 highest hits.
Right, it's not exactly the lower of the two scores.

At the bottom of the post, I've quoted the entire section on dealing with more bullet holes than should be present.

Here's how it shakes out. I did this mostly to work it all out for myself and figured others might get something out of how I laid it out so I could see things clearly.

1. You can take the target as scored according to section (b). That means that holes are eliminated, starting with the highest scored hits until you're down to the proper number and then the remaining hits are scored and summed for your total score.

2. You can refire as long as:
A. ...all the shots on the original target don't score exactly the same. That's according to section (a). In other words, if you shoot 10 shots and have 11 hits on target, but all 11 of them score the same, you can't ask for a refire. That's because whether they delete the highest or the lowest scoring hits, it will result in the same final score.

B. ...you didn't fire too few shots on target. According to section (c), if you fired too few shots on target and ended up with more hits than than you fired, the target is scored using the highest scoring hits for as many shots as are fired. The rest of the hits are disregarded and you will be scored misses for them. In other words, if you were supposed to fire 10 and only fired 6, but there were more than 6 holes in the target, then you would get credit for the 6 highest scoring hits on the target and you would be scored with 4 misses.

C. ...you didn't fire more shots than you should have. According to section (d), if that happens then you get the target scored with the lowest scoring hits. So if you fire 11 shots when you should have fired 10, they eliminate the highest scoring hit and sum the scores for the remaining 10 hits and that's your score. You don't get a refire because the extra holes are your own fault.
IF you choose to refire, and your refire score is HIGHER than the score on the original target when the original target is scored using the HIGHEST scoring hits (instead of the lowest hits) then you will get the score of your original target scored using the highest scoring hits by eliminating the lowest scoring hits. That's section (e).

Example 1:
So let's say you fire the requisite number of shots and your original target has 11 hits but should have 10. Nine of them are 9s, one is an 8 and one is a 10. If you choose not to refire, your score is a 89 (9x9 + 8)--they would drop the 10.

Now you refire and end up with all 10s, for a refire score of 100. They would now look back at your original target but this time they would score it by eliminating the lowest hit--the 8. That would give you a reference score of 91 (9x9 + 10). Since your refire score is higher than 91, you would get the score of 91 and wouldn't get the refire score.

If you refired and ended up with a refire score of 91 or less then you would get your refire score.

So, for this particular example, it probably wouldn't make a lot of sense to refire because you can only improve your score by 2 points (from 89 to 91) since 91 is the maximum score you would be allowed on your refire. And, of course, you could end up with a much lower score if you botch the refire.

Example 2:
Let's run through it again with different numbers. You fire the requisite number of shots and your original target has 13 hits instead of 10. Nine of them are 9s, one is a 10, and the remaining three hits are 5s. Now your original target would be scored as (3x5 + 7x9) = 78.

You choose to refire and get all 10s for a score of 100. They score your original target by dropping the lowest hits and get 91 (9x9 + 10). So you can't get higher than 91 and that's what you get.

But in this case, refiring makes more sense (assuming you are pretty sure the 5s aren't your hits) because you can potentially improve your score from 78 to 91.
____________________________________________________________________
http://www.nrahq.org/compete/RuleBoo...ol/pst-w14.pdf
14.10 Excessive Hits - If more than the required number of hits appear on the target, any shot which can be identified by the appearance of the bullet hole as having been fired by some competitor, other than the competitor assigned to that target, or as having been fired in a previous string, will be pasted and will not be scored. If more than the required number of hits then remain on the target a complete new score will be fired and the original score will be disregarded, except:

(a) If all hits are of equal value, the score will be recorded as the required number of hits of that value.

(b) The competitor shall be allowed to accept a score equal to the required number of hits of lowest value.

(c) If a competitor fires fewer than the prescribed number of shots through the competitors own fault, and there should be more hits on the target than the shots fired, the competitor will be scored the number of shots of highest value equal to the number fired, and will be given a miss for each unfired cartridge.

(d) If a competitor, by mistake, fires more than the required number of shots, the required number of hits of lowest value will be scored. This shall not be considered a refire as outlined in Rule 9.14.

(e) If the competitor refires, the original target with excessive hits shall be retained by the designated range official and on refiring, the competitor may not receive a score higher than the required number of hits of highest value on the original target. If the score on the refired target is higher than the required number of hits of highest value on the original target, then the original target shall be scored using the appropriate hits of highest value; but if the score on the refired target is not higher, then such refired score will be
recorded.
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Last edited by JohnKSa; December 9, 2012 at 10:49 PM. Reason: Corrected Error pointed out in following post.
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Old December 9, 2012, 05:14 PM   #15
spacecoast
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JohnKSa -

Thanks for the detailed examples, my only quibble is that scoring shots are 5 and above only (per your second example).

In my case, had I known, I would have definitely elected to take the refire, normally I'm looking for at least 90 in a Rapid Fire round, and sometimes do significantly better. I believe the highest 10 on my original target would have scored at least 93 or 94, although I didn't actually count them up.

Thanks again...
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Old December 9, 2012, 10:48 PM   #16
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Oops. Got wrapped up in the #'s and forgot the basics. I'll fix the error.

By the way, Good Shooting!
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