The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

View Poll Results: Do you keep body armor as part of your "emergency gear"?
Yes 22 20.75%
No - but it's a good idea 47 44.34%
No - there's no point. 37 34.91%
Voters: 106. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 7, 2013, 11:53 AM   #51
9mm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 9, 2011
Location: Land of the Free
Posts: 2,711
I don't know what everyone is talking about, but body armor does not slow you down that much, the benifits are worth it.
__________________
See user title
9mm is offline  
Old April 7, 2013, 12:28 PM   #52
SHE3PDOG
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2013
Posts: 984
The 5.7 cartridge itself is not necessarily armor penetrating, unless it is specifically the SS190. The SS190 does have heavy restrictions though, just like any other AP round. The ones you are sold are not the SS190 unless they have the black tip and are labeled as AP.

In other words, save your money if you only want it because you think that it will penetrate someone's body armor. It is a sweet gun if you want it for other purposes though.
__________________
Semper Fi

Marine, NRA member, SAF Defender's Club member, and constitutionally protected keeper and bearer of firearms
SHE3PDOG is offline  
Old April 7, 2013, 05:28 PM   #53
johnelmore
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2013
Posts: 274
Trust me on this one. Most vests weigh at least 5 pounds if not more. They do not breathe and they generate the same heat as a winter jacket. Even if you are in great shape and well conditioned thats still 5 lbs to slow you down.

Plates weigh like bowling balls. One ball on the back and one on the front. They have actually been around forever and the military didnt use them until the last several years. They used them mainly because of the politics and media not because they felt it was a good idea.

Study after study for the last 200 years say the same thing. Carry around more then 35 lbs and you become less effective as a foot soldier. That hasnt changed. Wearing 40 lbs of armor on top of your usual load is suicide. Would it make sense to carry two bowling balls through a battlefield? I guess it makes sense to those who believe two heavy plates covering up a small portion of your body will make you a better soldier or Marine.
johnelmore is offline  
Old April 7, 2013, 05:50 PM   #54
Dwight55
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2004
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 2,564
When we were in RVN, . . . only time we had any "vest" was a flak jacket, . . . and for the most part, I only wore mine on convoy. I think I remember wearing it up in the MG tower, . . . but that was 45 years ago, . . .

I still have one here, . . . bought it for our veteran parades, . . . almost new looking.

SHTF, . . . it's close enough to grab, . . . and for the protection it would afford, . . . I would wear it.

Now body armor 24/7, . . . that's a different story.

May God bless,
Dwight
__________________
www.dwightsgunleather.com
If you can breathe, . . . thank God!
If you can read, . . . thank a teacher!
If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!
Dwight55 is offline  
Old April 7, 2013, 06:44 PM   #55
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,513
Quote:
Before making a decision on body armor go to a range and test out your accuracy with and without. Run a 100 meter dash with and without.

I tend to think body armor has probably caused a few fatalities...
Quote:
Being in shape helps, as does a positive attitude. Not everything in this world is made for your convenience. Like a handgun, it's meant to be comforting, not comfortable. Buy a personal force screen when they finally come out.
Not everything about ballistic vests is comfortable, no doubt, but the classic Clint Smith speech about a handgun meant to be comforting, not comfortable, just means that Clint had apparently made some poor carry choices.

Will the weight of a vest slow you down? Sure, so will the weight of your gun, shoes, and pants...and anything else weighing you down. So if you are after ultimate speed, then maybe going naked with some good lightweight running shoes (because tender feet will slow you down more than feet protected in lightweight running shoes) might be your best option, but then what protections do you have?

There is a balance with all your choices. Choose wisely for what fits and suits your situation.

I would rather be in body armor in a gunfight than not. One thing is certain. Even when I was in top shape, I could not outrun a bullet.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old April 7, 2013, 07:43 PM   #56
johnelmore
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2013
Posts: 274
Well if you understand the disadvantages of armor then let us know what you are looking for.

When Im overseas I use a Point Blank Nato Front Opening. I prefer this style vest because it can be donned and doffed fast. Since its front opening I usually open the front to vent it out during off time. It has wrap around side protection and a collar. If you could only have one tactical vest thats what I would get. You wont be able to put on a side opening vest or that pig plate carrier with such speed.
johnelmore is offline  
Old April 7, 2013, 08:16 PM   #57
JimPage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2010
Location: Rome, NY
Posts: 640
"Am I the only one who hates body armor? Every single piece of body armor I have worn has been uncomfortable and distracting from thin II-A setups made of Dyneema to the heavier III-A varieties. All of them slow you down. Before making a decision on body armor go to a range and test out your accuracy with and without. Run a 100 meter dash with and without.

I tend to think body armor has probably caused a few fatalities... "

I'm willing to bet that the body armor is a lot more comfortable than a bullet in the chest!
__________________
Jim Page

Cogito, ergo armatum sum
JimPage is offline  
Old April 8, 2013, 11:10 AM   #58
kinoons
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 22, 2008
Location: las vegas, NV
Posts: 399
Quote:
The 5.7 cartridge itself is not necessarily armor penetrating, unless it is specifically the SS190. The SS190 does have heavy restrictions though, just like any other AP round. The ones you are sold are not the SS190 unless they have the black tip and are labeled as AP.

In other words, save your money if you only want it because you think that it will penetrate someone's body armor. It is a sweet gun if you want it for other purposes though.
Not entirely true. While the ss195 and ss197 ammo does not go through soft armor, some of the protector series rounds offered by EA will defeat soft body armor.
kinoons is offline  
Old April 8, 2013, 11:46 AM   #59
Don P
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,812
Quote:
Personally I keep a vest in the nightstand where I keep my gun and light, and have always seen it as a good "just in case" thing to have around. It's nothing fancy, but it will supposidly stop most anything that comes out of a pistol. Should I ever need to leave my room in a emergency situation - get to the kids, etc. - it takes all of 5 seconds to put on.
Vests are rated for different calibers, so your thinking of supposedly stopping most anything doesn't hold water. The vest I own that I used while working for a armored car company is rated to resist a 357 mag.
Seems you are betting your life on that vest that will supposedly stop most anything.
Sound of breaking/crashing glass, startling the ever lovin crap out of you, tossing on a vest, grab the light and grab the gun after opening the draw/door on the stand, really? Why only put it on when having to leave the room?
__________________
NRA Life Member, NRA Range Safety Officer, IDPA Safety Officer, USPSA NROI Range Officer
As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.
Don P is offline  
Old April 8, 2013, 04:43 PM   #60
JerryM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 4, 1999
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 1,884
I am not interested in body armor. Considering the probability of an attack it is not worth the trouble and discomfort to me.
Jerry
__________________
Ecclesiastes 12:13 *┬ÂLet us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 *For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
JerryM is offline  
Old April 9, 2013, 03:58 AM   #61
Aaron1100us
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 19, 2011
Posts: 231
Re: Body Armor

I have three onlu because we get them issued at work. Never wear any besides work but nice to have around.

I did shoot an old one I had got from work several years ago. It was at least 5 years out of date. Shot it 10 feet away with .40 s&w and .22 lr. Stopped both just fine.
Aaron1100us is offline  
Old April 9, 2013, 04:15 AM   #62
dayman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2011
Location: The Woods
Posts: 1,134
Quote:
Vests are rated for different calibers, so your thinking of supposedly stopping most anything doesn't hold water
Quote:
It's nothing fancy, but it will supposidly stop most anything that comes out of a pistol.
emphasis added (and I resisted the urge to fix the typo).
According to the tag it will stop a .44mag, so like I said, most anything out of a pistol.

Quote:
Why only put it on when having to leave the room?
Because even if I wanted to sleep in it, I'm pretty sure my wife would object .
__________________
si vis pacem para bellum

Last edited by dayman; April 9, 2013 at 04:22 AM.
dayman is offline  
Old April 9, 2013, 07:46 AM   #63
johnelmore
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2013
Posts: 274
The II-A, II and III-A will all probably "stop" most calibers up to the 44 magnum. There are various youtube videos which tests this assertion. However, the problem is the force behind the round. Even though there may not be a penetration, the force behind the round is enough to create a lot of pain and internal injury. So if you are wearing a II-A and get hit by the 44 Magnum there may not be any penetration, but its going to be like someone just hit you with a bat accompanied by a lot of pain.

If you are keeping a vest by the nightstand "just in case" it will probably be useless when the time comes because of the amount of time to put it on and adjust it. Your best bet is a front-opening vest like the older version of the Point Blank Interceptor or the Point Blank NATO. The vest you put on like a jacket is far superior in such cases where you need to throw something on quickly. However, that type of vest would not offer the greatest amount of protection as you want the openings on the side rather then the front where rounds are most likely to impact.

I highly suggest training extensively with any body armor as it takes a while to get used to it. You might find the extra pounds slows you down or distracts you away from proper aim. Most people who aim and shoot at something miss the target. So if you are moving quicker you become a bad target. If you are slowed down by some armor then you will be a better target.

Someone had stated "why not just go naked?". Well, in actual combat, the US Navy Seals in Vietnam did everything they could to lighten their load to include wearing light tennis shoes and no helmet in certain operations. There is some value to going into a situation light rather then loaded down with gear. There has been test after test which shows the greater poundage over 35 lbs for males the less effective you become.
johnelmore is offline  
Old April 9, 2013, 04:26 PM   #64
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,513
Quote:
Vests are rated for different calibers, so your thinking of supposedly stopping most anything doesn't hold water.
Surprisingly, IIa vests will stop most pistol calibers. The higher up you go, the more calibers/loadings that are stopped. In other words, higher ranked vests are inclusive of everything covered by lower ranked vests. So IIIa covers everything for IIIa, II, and IIa. II covers everything for II and IIa.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/atta...9&d=1163605401

If you are wearing a vest and shot by a perp, consider yourself luck if he uses hollowpoints. They are less apt to penetrate than ball ammo. The nose tends to crush in and the sides accordion out with a single fold, causing a form of expansion than helps stop the bullet from penetrating.

Quote:
So if you are wearing a II-A and get hit by the 44 Magnum there may not be any penetration, but its going to be like someone just hit you with a bat accompanied by a lot of pain.
Being in pain is better than being in dead. You will like be in pain soon or later after being shot by any typical defensive centerfire caliber if wearing a soft armor vest. The Kevlar Saves book (now online and done differently) had a bunch of examples of the bruising that occurred to officers that had been shot. The amount of pain and bruising varied by situation. Some commented that it felt like they were hit with a bat. Others didn't realize they had been shot (multiple times in at least one example, IIRC) until later, the photos of the bruising being of officers in hospital beds (for observation).

Quote:
If you are keeping a vest by the nightstand "just in case" it will probably be useless when the time comes because of the amount of time to put it on and adjust it. Your best bet is a front-opening vest like the older version of the Point Blank Interceptor or the Point Blank NATO.
I have gone both ways with the over the top (traditional) and the jacket styled vests. I see for there to be no more reason to have to adjust an over the top vest than there would be a jacket styled vest. If you are adjusting your over the top vest every time you are putting it on, then you are doing it very inefficiently. The trick is to put it on, adjust everything how you like it, and then take it off with opening only one side (not side and shoulder, but one side only). Next time you put it on, you only close the one side and your are good to go.

The nice thing about the over the top vest is that if you don't get it closed, it still provides frontal protection. If you don't close your jacket vest, it can come open during movement and expose your COM vitals. The nice thing about a jacket vest is that it holds hard armor plates much better and often has means by which you can attach things like a holster (such as the PB you mentioned).
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old April 12, 2013, 10:15 AM   #65
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 1,185
considering how unlikely it is that I will ever have to fire a weapon in SD to begin with, I don't really think that body armor has ever entered my mind.

I have a fire extinguisher sure... but I don't have a firemans (turnout) gear or airpack.

I wear a seatbelt when I drive to work.. but I don't wear a helmet, have a roll cage or 6 point harness.
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...
FireForged is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:20 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.11124 seconds with 9 queries