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Old December 11, 2012, 08:51 PM   #26
Mike Irwin
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A LOT of it depends on powder type, as well.

IMR powders have always had a reputation (born out in my semi-extensive experience with them in a number of rifle cartridges) as being VERY forgiving and capable of still producing extremely fine accuracy even with fairly wide deviations in charge weight.

Hatcher mentions that in his Notebook, as well.

Consistent powder positioning and density is apparently a lot more important.
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Old December 11, 2012, 09:01 PM   #27
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Quote:
point:use dippers as they are intended to be used
You go ahead and use your dippers "the way are intended to be used" and I will go ahead and modify mine to throw exactly the charges I would like them to.

I will leave it to you to decide who gets the better results.
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Old December 12, 2012, 07:49 AM   #28
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Quote:
How close is close enough ?
When using a dipper or a powder dump how many tenth's of a grain can you be off and still shoot good groups ?
Because there are so many variables there's probably no answer in general terms,one would have to try several different combinations over a period of time to find out what affects shooting accuracy and to what extent.Life's too
short I think.

Last edited by Unclenick; December 15, 2012 at 04:48 PM. Reason: setting quotation off for easier reading
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Old December 12, 2012, 08:25 AM   #29
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back in the early 70's I bet between me and my best friend we loaded two or three thousand 357's using those dippers and a Lee hammer kit and never had any problem other than some singed fingers when seating primers a bit too deep

Like I said earlier I like the dippers with stick powder to get me in the ballpark, I finish the charge with a trickler and a scale. I will still use that method rather than haul my chargemaster to the range when loading on the fly.
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Old December 13, 2012, 12:17 PM   #30
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Wouldn't modifying dippers lead to measurement errors?
Nope. The internal capacity of the dipper remains the same, doesn't change while using. Whether the factory or I determine the capacity of a dipper it will always be the same. I determine the capacity to dip a specific charge (having done this for quite a while, I've developed a method that is very consistent, and usually check repeatedly with a scale).
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Old December 13, 2012, 07:18 PM   #31
polyphemus
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Quote:
Quote:
Wouldn't modifying dippers lead to measurement errors?
Nope. The internal capacity of the dipper remains the same, doesn't change while using. Whether the factory or I determine the capacity of a dipper it will always be the same. I determine the capacity to dip a specific charge (having done this for quite a while, I've developed a method that is very consistant, and usually check repeatedly with a scale).
The capacity of a dipper will always be the same so long as you don't alter it,you determine the capacity of a dipper,ok so you build your own?that's very
skillful indeed and then you have developed a unique method that works for you
consistently.So far so good,and you also double check by weighing the charge,
very responsible and your point is?

Last edited by Unclenick; December 15, 2012 at 04:53 PM. Reason: setting quotations off for easier reading
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Old December 14, 2012, 03:38 AM   #32
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Now I understand...

that's why they invented Product Liability Insurance for Dippers.
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Old December 15, 2012, 11:52 AM   #33
mikld
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Wouldn't modifying dippers lead to measurement errors?
Nope. The internal capacity of the dipper remains the same, doesn't change while using. Whether the factory or I determine the capacity of a dipper it will always be the same. I determine the capacity to dip a specific charge (having done this for quite a while, I've developed a method that is very consistent, and usually check repeatedly with a scale).
The capacity of a dipper will always be the same so long as you don't alter it,you determine the capacity of a dipper,ok so you build your own?that's very
skillful indeed and then you have developed a unique method that works for you
consistently.So far so good,and you also double check by weighing the charge,
very responsible and your point is?
Well, my point is; I answered the question;"Wouldn't modifying dippers lead to measurement errors?" (your question I believe). What's your point? You wanted input. Skillful? Anybody can cut down a 38 Special case and epoxy on a piece of coat hanger wire for a handle. Unique method? You're kidding, right? Can you do a simple task the same way, consistently? Over and over?
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Old December 15, 2012, 01:27 PM   #34
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^^^
This is good stuff,you cut an empty shell,Where?if you got too much volume after you weigh that specific gun powder then you cut a little more,how much?
and what with? you file it? and if you cut too much at first you try again or what?.Like I said life's too short.
And no,in the remote occasion that I do something right I cannot repeat it if my life depends on it.
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Old December 15, 2012, 02:02 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by polyphemus View Post
^^^
This is good stuff,you cut an empty shell,Where?if you got too much volume after you weigh that specific gun powder then you cut a little more,how much?
and what with? you file it? and if you cut too much at first you try again or what?.Like I said life's too short.
And no,in the remote occasion that I do something right I cannot repeat it if my life depends on it.
This is becoming comical. Nothing is more repeatable than a fixed empty vessel. If you want to repeat it, make more empty vessels the same way you did the first one. If you take too much off, start again.

My AutoDisk powder measure is nothing more than a big, automatic dipper. If I want a bit more charge than one hole in a disk gives me I modify it (ream it, notch if, chamfer it, etc) and mark the new volume on the side of it. If I lose this disk, I buy another one and modify it the same way. I have repeated it.

A dipper is a dipper, not some magical vessel that is tied to one specific powder.

As I said before, there is a serious disconnect here. We all seem to understand how to relate the basic concept of volumetric measurement to use dippers, either purchased or homemade. You do not. There is nothing wrong with that, you dont need to. You are free to measure a charge any way you like.
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Old December 15, 2012, 04:43 PM   #36
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That little dipper included with the dies will throw a safe powder charge using lees instruction manual with the proper powder and bullet weight.

Example: 7.62x54R
Dipper supplied.......3.1 cc.

110 gr. H335 Benchmark.
123 gr. vN130
125 gr. H335
150 gr. BL-C(2) H4895
155 gr. vN150
156 gr vN140 vN135
165 gr. Barns X H4895 H-Varget H414 H380

This is just a portion of the list and are starting loads.
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Old December 15, 2012, 04:43 PM   #37
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^^^
You've definitely put your finger on it!Now I'm certain that I live in a permanent
state of confusion,everybody but me understands the concept of cubic displacement!
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Old December 15, 2012, 04:54 PM   #38
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The key is to use a consistent/repeatable technique. Richard Lee recommends pushing the bottom of the dipper in to the powder and letting the powder fall-in and striking-off the excess with a straight-edge/card. I find this technique throws lighter than advertised charges. In order to get close the the specified charge weight, I find dipping/scooping gets me very close. Regardless, dippers are the safest way to reload - i.e. no moving parts and static volume.
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Old December 15, 2012, 05:19 PM   #39
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The repeatability of a dipper is similar to that of a powder measure if used properly; sometimes better. The adjustability is not. There are situations in which a dipper is preferred—small charges in particular. Try, for example, finding a powder measure precise enough for charging .25 ACP cases. These little guys often need lower charge weights and tighter repeatability than the average measure is capable of. Even .32 ACP and .32 S&W can actually be easier to charge with scoops.

There are also situations, such as loading at the range to use the same cases over and over, where it can sometimes be easier to carry a few known scoops than a measure. Scales are always problematic outdoors because of the breeze.

Finally, people develop different ways of working that they prefer. There sometimes is no explanation and doesn't need to be.
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Old December 16, 2012, 12:01 PM   #40
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Perhaps the use/consept of measuring with a dipper is too simple! I can't make it any more difficult, 'cause it just is that simple...
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Old December 16, 2012, 02:44 PM   #41
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Be very careful with dippers

Loaders:
I got a couple of dangerous squibs when I under loaded a different type of bullet than the formula called for.

As a newbie, and I still kind of am one, I didn't realize that bullet type mattered all that much and used a dipper that corresponded with bullet weight, but not bullet type. The result was a very dangerous squib in a revolver and an hours work at home taking apart about 150 rounds.

If you use a dipper follow the formula exactly, powder type, bullet weight everything. Course you should do that even if you don't use a dipper.

Live well, be safe
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Old December 16, 2012, 04:26 PM   #42
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Some links

On the forum "Accuratereloading.com", the thread "Effects of Tiny Variations" on velocity yielded some good thoughts. It would be worth reading.

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/...2918#924102918

It also has links to these articles which are worth reading, too.

http://www.gun-tests.com/performance...adrecipes.html


http://www.shootingsoftware.com/loadens.htm

and I wish I could find more details about this demonstration performed regularly in a master loading class conducted by a bullet manufacturer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat Motor
Load 10 cartridges over a scale and mark them number one with a felt tip pen. Use the same components and load ten cartridges straight from a good measure and mark them number two. Put all 20 into a bag and mix them up. Use two targets marked one and two. Dip into the bag and if you pull out a one fire it on target one. Number twos go on target number two. Shoot at one minute intervals and compare the two groups.
or compare the strings of velocities for uniformity.

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Old December 16, 2012, 05:16 PM   #43
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How to adjust dippers

First, let me say this: It never bothered me that people say the Lee scoops throw a little less powder than the chart says. I ignore what the chart says. I determine what the scoop throws by actually measuring what it does. And I do this at every loading session whether using a dipper or a measure.

If you want to adjust the amount of powder a dipper throws, simply reduce its volume by putting something in the bottom of the scoop. (Wood glue, rubber cement, hard candle wax, a plug of paper mache, anything that will take up a little space and won't "grab" the powder or contaminate it.)

Option one:
Get a dipper that throws a bit too much powder, a drill bit that just fits inside the dipper, a small brush, some wood glue. Dribble some into the bottom of a dipper that is too large. Let it harden and measure how much the dipper provides. If it is still too much, add a little more glue. Once it is too little, take the drill bit and (holding it in your hand) carve out some of the glue. Keep at it (trial and error, also known as cut and fit, is not all that tedious) until the dipper drops the proper amount. This is how we adjust powder measures, isn't it?

Alternative is to get a machine screw/bolt that fills the inner diameter of the dipper you wish to adjust. Drill a (slightly undersized) hole straight through the bottom of the dipper and thread the bolt into the hole. The bottom of the dipper can be adjusted up and down by turning the screw/bolt. It you used a hex head bolt, you have to do this from the bottom. If you used a screw with a round head, you could do it from either direction.

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Old December 16, 2012, 05:52 PM   #44
tkglazie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Sheep View Post
I ignore what the chart says. I determine what the scoop throws by actually measuring what it does. And I do this at every loading session whether using a dipper or a measure.
An excellent philosophy, and well said.
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Old December 16, 2012, 07:54 PM   #45
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As the OP, I guess I got my question answered.

I load pistol ammo, and I'm usually loading a couple of hundred rounds at a time. I've grown to rely on the Lee auto disk powder measure. I really doubt I'll ever use the dipper. Life's too short.

Thanks.
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Old December 16, 2012, 08:37 PM   #46
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I'm one of those who swear by dippers - I have used them for everyone of my 17K loads over the past 3 years. Don't take Lee's word for the measure, calibrate them for your powders and make some custom dippers where you need them.
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Old December 17, 2012, 09:40 AM   #47
Mike Irwin
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"This is good stuff,you cut an empty shell,Where?if you got too much volume after you weigh that specific gun powder then you cut a little more,how much?"


Let's apply a little logic to the process here...

Which is easier:

A) randomly cutting the shell and hoping that you get what you want?

B) Or measuring out the amount of powder that you want (using your scale), pouring it into the shell, marking it carefully, trimming it, and then testing it to make sure that it repeatably dips the amount of powder that you want?

Unless you're a complete and total dumbass, the obvious answer is B.

You start with the known quantity of powder, and if the dipper you made dips heavy, you can either use a file or a lathe type case trimmer to remove excess brass to get exactly what you want.


I said this before, other people have said this, and I'll repeat it...

EVERY mechanical powder thrower on the market is nothing more than a more complex version of the powder dipper.

RCBS Little Dandy or Uniflow, Lee Pro Auto Disk or Perfect, Lyman 55, Belding and Mull, etc. etc. etc.,
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Old December 17, 2012, 01:35 PM   #48
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"I haven't even figured out why Lee includes them with their dies."

I have; they scoop up powder for reloading. It helps to follow directions tho.

If used well dippers are as consistant as any other volume dispensing tool. They're fixed so obviously no one is going to adjust a dipper to obtain a specific weighted charge, that requires an adjustable dispensing device. How desireable being able to pick out a specific charge weight and get to it generally requires dropping low charges on a scale and trickling up to weight anyway; dippers will do that as well as vastly more expensive cast iron measures.

Contrary to popular assumption, how much charge variation before it shows on targets will vary by several factors but few charges demand consistancy to +/- zero grains. A well developed and carefully assembled load will tolerate a charge range of several tenths variation without any visible effect on target - no commercial ammo is weighted and some of it shoots phenomenally well.
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Old December 17, 2012, 02:11 PM   #49
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Quote:
They're fixed so obviously no one is going to adjust a dipper to obtain a specific weighted charge
A lot of reloaders choose a slightly too-large dipper and sand it down to fine-tune the volume scooped. If that's not feasible it's very possible to make your own dippers using shell casings and a grinder:

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Old January 1, 2013, 09:46 PM   #50
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Little dipper, big dipper....

Am I the only guy reading this entertaining thread who uses Lee's dippers for black powder? I'm way too anal to use anything but a scale for my smokeless target loads, but I let my hair down and "speed load" BP with a dipper. I collected all those free dippers I had accumulated and found one that holds just the right amount of the Holy Black for my .44 fun shootin'. Accuracy? Good enough. Hell, with BP, ya can't see much downrange anyhow....
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