The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: General

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old December 19, 2012, 06:44 PM   #101
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,406
Next time I get out, which will be awhile, I'm going to try both the target in post #87 and the "penny challenge". I've still got to try my own "How far can you hit a baseball?" challenge from a couple of summers ago too. Should be able to hit a baseball at 300 yards if you can consistently shoot MOA.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old December 19, 2012, 06:52 PM   #102
Metal god
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 1,888
where do I find that taget on 87 ?
__________________
If you have a problem with everybody .

It's not everybody that has the problem
Metal god is offline  
Old December 19, 2012, 06:59 PM   #103
old roper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 11, 2007
Posts: 1,054
When I moved down here from No Co out west of Woodland Park we had one shot match at 100yd limited to sporter rifles and 6x scopes then we had Dynamite shoot out western Co

http://www.gufd.org/gu/dynamite-shoot/ Good friend of mine won the 1000yd few years back with sporter pre 64 model 70 270 and he also won couple up in Mt before moving here.


we have few shooters in our gun club that shot match like this and it's held down NRA center Raton

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubb...Number=1230667

I think their lot more shooters that can do MOA but don't brag.
__________________
Semper Fi
Vietnam
VFW
old roper is offline  
Old December 19, 2012, 07:01 PM   #104
nate45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,746
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metal god
where do I find that taget on 87 ?
Copy it and print it full size on an 8.5x11 inch sheet of paper.
__________________
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
(>_<)
nate45 is online now  
Old December 19, 2012, 08:27 PM   #105
FrankenMauser
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2008
Location: 1B ID
Posts: 6,660
I think most current production rifles are perfectly capable of MoA accuracy, including Art's citation of "all day long" indicating repeatability (not a a literal marathon shoot).

However, most shooters are not capable of the same.
They either don't care, have poor technique, or don't practice enough. (I'm drifting farther and farther into the latter bracket. )



The majority of statements I see along the lines of "1 MoA all day long" are referring to the rifle, and sometimes the ammunition. Almost never, do you see some one say "I can shoot 1 MoA all day long."
It's a statement about the rifle and/or ammunition's consistency and repeatability; not the shooter's abilities.
__________________
"Such is the strange way that man works -- first he virtually destroys a species and then does everything in his power to restore it."
FrankenMauser is offline  
Old December 19, 2012, 10:10 PM   #106
FrankenMauser
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2008
Location: 1B ID
Posts: 6,660
Since I've had plenty of time to learn the capabilities of my rifles and their ammunition, I wanted to test my own precision, and a combination of precision and accuracy, during my last shooting trip.

I wanted something with some small, challenging targets; an appearance that was NOT pleasing to the eye (distracting); and something a little different.
I ended up building the target in a CAD program, so I could plot 1:1 on paper.


This is what I came up with - with minor inspiration from "Smack the Smiley":
The circles were intentionally left without a center point. -They're are good for groups, while challenging yourself to keep everything inside the lines.
The diamond is great for 'distance from center' shooting. (Single shot, or group.)
And, the smileys, of course, are for wiping that stupid grin off their faces.



And, the dimensions:


Some of the dimensions are a bit funky, because my printer's scaling is only accurate to about +/-0.020" per 2 inches, or so. Through trial and error, I tweaked the virtual dimensions to give me something more accurate on paper.


It sure does make you feel like an idiot, when you miss that 5/8" smiley at 100 yards, with a rifle you KNOW will run 1/2 MoA. But, it fells pretty good, when you can wipe that smirk off the face of the 5/32" and 5/16" smileys.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg smiley_target_800.jpg (35.4 KB, 254 views)
File Type: jpg smiley_target_dim_800.jpg (74.7 KB, 138 views)
__________________
"Such is the strange way that man works -- first he virtually destroys a species and then does everything in his power to restore it."

Last edited by FrankenMauser; December 20, 2012 at 08:18 PM.
FrankenMauser is offline  
Old December 19, 2012, 11:27 PM   #107
buckhorn_cortez
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 30, 2010
Posts: 389
I have a .308 that will do 0.5 MoA "all day." Unfortunately, there are few days that I am good enough to make it work to that level. Also, what i've found that greatly affects the accuracy repeatability is the concentrcity of the ammunition. I've gaged a number of factory "target" ammunition and a lot of it has highly variable round-to-round concentricity. This type of variability has a huge affect on highly accurate rifles.

If I'm using the rifle in a situation where high accuracy is imperative - I go through every round with a concentricity gage and tweak the bullets in the case until the round-to-round variation is under 0.001 - and you can see the difference in accuracy.

That's what I find so interesting about precision rifles and shooting - figuring out all of interactions in the entire system from the load and bullet type to the actual physical configuration of the finished round.
buckhorn_cortez is offline  
Old December 20, 2012, 08:59 AM   #108
howabouttheiris
Member
 
Join Date: April 22, 2012
Posts: 40
"the concentrcity of the ammunition"

interesting....

My #1 ammo complaint for factory .223 69g match rounds is overall length. With my Savage I can feel the slight bolt pressure of a long round touching at the last moment of chambering. The lack of bullet jump increases the pressure slightly and will cause a round to strike about 1/2 inch high at 100 yards. This is less common with Black Hills or Federal Premium, but I do notice 2-3 in most every box of PRVI. (but $0.80, $1.10, and $0.50 per round respectively)
howabouttheiris is offline  
Old December 20, 2012, 09:47 AM   #109
hooligan1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2010
Location: Independence Missouri
Posts: 3,249
Frankenmauser, am I supposed to be able to even see those little numbers at 100 yds?
__________________
Thanks for coming!
hooligan1 is offline  
Old December 20, 2012, 08:19 PM   #110
FrankenMauser
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2008
Location: 1B ID
Posts: 6,660
Nope.
They're just for reference.

For some reason, the first image's URL was broken. It has been fixed.
(My browser probably had a cached copy of the image when I submitted the post, so I couldn't see that it was broken.)
__________________
"Such is the strange way that man works -- first he virtually destroys a species and then does everything in his power to restore it."
FrankenMauser is offline  
Old December 21, 2012, 05:23 PM   #111
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 4,467
buckhorn_cortez, if you go through every round with a concentricity gage and tweak the bullets in the case until the round-to-round variation is under 0.001 - and you can see the difference in accuracy, you are probably the only person on this planet to do so with a .308 Win. cartridge.

And your worst groups with bullets having .002" to .003" runout would have to be no larger than 1/4 inch at 100 yards.

Nobody in the top levels of competitive shooting with the .308 Win. cartridge would suscribe to this premise.

Besides, if you're measuring bullet runout with the cartridge resting on the body right behind the shoulder for the gauge's front reference and the case body right in front of the extractor rim for the back reference, you are not measuring bullet runout relative to how the case neck and bullet aligns in the chamber. The case body right behind the shoulder ain't where the cartridge centers in the front of the chamber when it's fired.
__________________
US Navy Distinguished Marksman Badge 153
Former US Navy & Palma Rifle Team Member
NRA High Power Master & Long Range High Master
NRA Smallbore Prone Master

Last edited by Bart B.; December 21, 2012 at 05:32 PM.
Bart B. is offline  
Old December 21, 2012, 06:41 PM   #112
m&p45acp10+1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 3, 2009
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 3,307
Not sure of the MOA on a bad day with many of my rifles. Though I can say most everyone of them will shoot better than I can milk them for on any day.

My Savage Model 12 FSSV will shoot sub half MOA with my hand loads. Under MOA with cheapo crappy ammo any day. My CZ 527 American will shoot one hole of caliber size for 5 shots till it warms up, and the hole gets a little bigger.

With iron sights the best I do most times is 3 to 4 MOA with any ammo. My eye sight is the limiting factor in that.
__________________
No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.
m&p45acp10+1 is offline  
Old December 22, 2012, 06:30 PM   #113
nate45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,746
I go on a two mile walk two or three times a week for exercise. Yesterday I took a target and target stand and went 1.5 miles in one direction instead of a mile to land I can shoot on, I never shoot there, but I have permission to and its fairly remote. I sat up the target and walked back home. Today I took my Remington 700 BDL Varmint .308, range finder and spotting scope and walked over where I'd set up the target. Light was still good as that was about 15:00 this afternoon. I checked the distance with my laser range finder until I was as close to exactly 200 yards from the target I sat up yesterday as I could get.

I used only the bi-pod for support and I shot a ten shot group at the right top orange circle fairly rapidly. I can't really say what size it is because obviously two shots missed the paper. Then I was going to slow fire five at the upper left, but after the first four I decided to try and hit the bulls eye on the shoot 'n see.

The eight shots that made it on the paper of the ten shot group measure six inches and the four shots on the left measure two and a half inches. And as you can see the bulls eye shot missed. Not bad for the worst, high powered bolt action rifle I own. Well, excepting my old Enfield and Smith-Corona 1903-a3. Also it has a 3x-9x Burris Fulfield II with the ballistic plex reticle. That scope can only be described as rudimentary by todays standards.

__________________
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
(>_<)
nate45 is online now  
Old December 24, 2012, 07:01 AM   #114
hooligan1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2010
Location: Independence Missouri
Posts: 3,249
Thats pretty cool Nate, I would take my rifle and shoot at the target every day if I was you and I had permission to do so.
__________________
Thanks for coming!
hooligan1 is offline  
Old January 1, 2013, 11:01 AM   #115
howabouttheiris
Member
 
Join Date: April 22, 2012
Posts: 40
So after reading and contributing to this post, I wanted to try my 'MOA all day' capability.

Arrived at the range with a newly mounted scope (added new base / rings) and a 50 pack of Black Hills. (normally shoot cheaper ammo, but in a shortage, I will pay $0.80 a pull) Shot 5 to warm up the barrel and find my 0, shot a couple more making fine adjustments and a few retesting after replacing zeroed caps.

With 40 rounds remaining, I dialed down 0.5" (to preserve my point of aim) and fired the following 8 five shot groups onto my targets 1 inch dots.

Here is the setup.

Savage 12 FCV .223
69g Black Hills match
100 yard outdoor range
temp 38F
wind 7-10 from about 80d (so very minor)

Before I did the measurments with On Target, I thought I had blown it with one target, but I narrowly snuck in under 1 MOA.

I shot (in MOA) from worst to best....
.908
.843
.780
.558
.494
.465
.342
.257

Is 40-rounds-in-a-row 'all day'...... debatable, but I will claim at least a tie.

howabouttheiris is offline  
Old January 1, 2013, 12:10 PM   #116
fatwhiteboy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 3, 2011
Posts: 301
My rifles can shoot MOA from a bench but I am getting old and cannot do it consistently anymore...
__________________
Fat White
So Cal
fatwhiteboy is offline  
Old January 1, 2013, 12:18 PM   #117
ak2323
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 8, 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 190
Quote:
So to the OP: There are enough guns out there that can. There are probably a lot fewer people behind those rifles that can. It's not the tools fault that the wielder is not capable of using it to the full advantage

BINGO. Plus 1
+2.

I've got a couple of rifles that can (and have) shot 0.5 MOA reliably.

I certainly can't.
ak2323 is offline  
Old January 1, 2013, 03:39 PM   #118
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 4,467
Best examples of a barrel shooting 1 MOA all day long, or at least for many, many shots, are the test barrels used by Lake City Army Ammo Plant testing M118 or M853 7.62 National Match ammo lots. They'll put 200 to 300 shots in a single group. Their best lots' group have a mean shot hole radius of 1.7 to 1.8 inches and the extreme spread's under 6 inches. Tests are done at 600 yards, so that's MOA all day long to me.
__________________
US Navy Distinguished Marksman Badge 153
Former US Navy & Palma Rifle Team Member
NRA High Power Master & Long Range High Master
NRA Smallbore Prone Master
Bart B. is offline  
Old January 1, 2013, 09:36 PM   #119
btmj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 1, 2011
Location: Near St. Louis, Missouri
Posts: 747
Very nice shooting "howabouttheiris"

The lack of out-liers impresses me.
btmj is offline  
Old January 2, 2013, 06:32 AM   #120
Zen Archery
Member
 
Join Date: January 30, 2005
Posts: 94
Like this 12 shots at 100 yards

__________________
Video Hunting Library
Zen Archery is offline  
Old January 2, 2013, 02:04 PM   #121
TheNatureBoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2007
Posts: 1,177
It depends on who is talking. I shoot targets with 2 guys who have been handloading/target shooting for many years. If they talk MOA I listen because I know the quality of their rifles and their ability. Any one else....I listen; take it with a grain of salt until they prove that they/their rifle can.
If I put my rifle in a led sled or a similar device, my rifles can shoot MOA. With me behind it.....thats another story

Last edited by TheNatureBoy; January 2, 2013 at 02:11 PM.
TheNatureBoy is online now  
Old January 3, 2013, 07:07 PM   #122
Meeteetse
Member
 
Join Date: January 1, 2012
Location: Wyoming - Texas
Posts: 66
Yes, I believe there are lots of factory guns that can shoot MOA, but I also believe that are very few people who can shoot MOA consistently.
__________________
All it takes for tyranny to succeed is for good men to do nothing.
Meeteetse is offline  
Old January 4, 2013, 11:23 PM   #123
old roper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 11, 2007
Posts: 1,054
Here is something from Lilja on LR match groups with his barrel going back to 1998.

http://www.riflebarrels.com/winners/1000yards.htm
__________________
Semper Fi
Vietnam
VFW
old roper is offline  
Old January 5, 2013, 01:21 PM   #124
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 4,467
old ropers link to Lilja's barrels used for records is something to think about. The 600-yard aggregate for group shooting are the average of several groups shot. The largest groups are typically half again as big as the average. Agg's in the 1.7 to almost 2 inch range happen when the largest single goups about 3 inches.

While to some this may seem exciting, but such groups from free recoiling rifles virtually untouched by humans today are no smaller than test groups with rifles normally fired from the shoulder shot around 1970. Which to me means, all the modern stuff ain't any more accurate than what some Winchester 70 based rifles did 40 some odd years ago. With full length sized cases to boot.
__________________
US Navy Distinguished Marksman Badge 153
Former US Navy & Palma Rifle Team Member
NRA High Power Master & Long Range High Master
NRA Smallbore Prone Master
Bart B. is offline  
Old January 5, 2013, 03:21 PM   #125
old roper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 11, 2007
Posts: 1,054
Bart B,

I like group shooting and that is were my interest are and if I decided to get into F-Class as I mention before it be the open @ 1000yds.

These F-Class shooter has about same style shooting as BR shooter

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek100.html

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek088.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GcDY0S096c

http://blog.sinclairintl.com/2010/08...hester-part-2/

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...ome-built-gun/

I'd sure be interested in your comments on the F-Class open as to how they compare to those test run in the 70's shoulder groups?
__________________
Semper Fi
Vietnam
VFW

Last edited by old roper; January 5, 2013 at 04:50 PM.
old roper is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.17757 seconds with 8 queries