The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: General

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old December 11, 2012, 11:54 AM   #51
nate45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,746
Quote:
Originally Posted by FiveInADime View Post
This is good stuff. You're messing with us, right? 3-shot groups can mean just as much as 10 shot groups if you shoot enough of them. If you shoot 20 3-shot groups and the bullets all land in the same place relative to POA, then it's the same as shooting 6 10-shot groups with all the bullets landing in the same place relative to POA. Now, what rifle, heavy barrel or not can shoot 10-consecutive shots in a minute without the barrel heating to branding iron levels?

If you shoot 3 Sub-MOA 5-shot groups in a row, that's the same as shooting a 15-shot Sub-MOA group. Happens more often than some people in this thread think even with sporter rifles. I see guys at the range shooting heavy bolt-action rifles into 3/4"-1" 5-shot groups at 200 yards with regularity. I have a .243 that I can easily count on 1.5" groups at 200 yards. That's slow-fired 5-shot groups. Nothing special other than some painstaking work at the reloading bench.

Shoot your five three shot groups all at the same target, then measure.

Shooting ten shots in a row won't hurt anything. Even at a fairly rapid pace. People will use the heat as an excuse for why their ten shot group is 1.5-2 MOA instead of whatever their slow fired 3 shot group was. Truth is their 'MOA' rifle is really not.

There are stories of a single bullet that for no explained reason flies out of what might have been a tight cluster. This often occurs with a three-shot string and many times with a five-shot string. If you're lucky enough to fire a group without a flier, you can end up with a very tight group. However, usually what happens if another five or seven shots are fired to complete a 10-shot string, other bullets fill in the space between the main group and the flier to make a reasonably rounded group. Ten shots are a more reliable indicator when it comes to predicting what a load is likely to do in the future.

The problem with 10-shot groups is that when you report them, everyone thinks you aren't shooting very well or that the ammunition is not good because the group sizes are so much larger than three- or five-shot groups. Also, when we're firing three- or five-shot groups with a flier, it is only natural to assume that it was caused by a flinch or "pulling" the shot. Therefore, since the flier was our own fault, the tendency is to eliminate it from any reporting of group size.

This is one of the advantages of using a machine rest... The machine rest reduces the human element.
After using this machine rest for several years, I have determined that a 1.5-inch 10-shot group at 100 yards... is a good one.

- Rick Jamison, the author of the Precision Reloading column in Shooting Times magazine

I'm betting Rick Jamison has done more rifle testing than most of us. Seeing as how he gets paid and financed to do it.
__________________
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
(>_<)

Last edited by nate45; December 11, 2012 at 12:15 PM. Reason: Added quote because the page changed.
nate45 is online now  
Old December 11, 2012, 12:02 PM   #52
4runnerman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 16, 2010
Location: Minnsota
Posts: 2,762
Now, what rifle, heavy barrel or not can shoot 10-consecutive shots in a minute without the barrel heating to branding iron levels?

I shoot 10 shot groups all the time.Barrel is warm by then Barrel is warm by then,but a far cry from hot.
__________________
NRA Certified RSO
NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional
4runnerman is online now  
Old December 11, 2012, 12:18 PM   #53
Art Eatman
Staff Lead
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX, USA
Posts: 22,362
nate45, I have a 500-yard range at my house. I mention this because the only ten-shot group I've shot in many years was on this range; maybe ten years back.

Probably about two minutes. I wasn't hurrying, but I wasn't dallying around. I called two flyers. The other eight were in a six-inch group. 1.2 MOA.

Low on ammo, I had just shot two four-shot .0.8 MOA groups a couple of minutes before, with a different load.

The old Weatherby has had around 4,000 rounds run through it. 3x10 scope. 26" #2 profile sporter barrel. '06.

This was just messing around, casual shooting. No real serious effort on my part. Just meddling along in my notion that if it's within 500 yards, it belongs to me.
__________________
You're from BATFE? Come right in! I use all your fine products!
Art Eatman is offline  
Old December 11, 2012, 12:41 PM   #54
nate45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,746
About six months ago, I shot at several 55 gallon drums, I had sat out between 200 and 500 yards. My goal was just to hit the 12 inch paper plates I had taped to them. I'll say I'm good out to 440 with my rifles, 1/4 mile isn't bad. Thats without adjusting the windage and elevation though, although some of my hunting type scopes have BDC, still wind can really eat you up out at 500 and beyond. Even with my Mil dot reticle scopes, its hard to guess a kentucky windage hold way out there. Actually adjusting the turrets becomes a necessity for precision.
__________________
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
(>_<)
nate45 is online now  
Old December 11, 2012, 01:04 PM   #55
warbirdlover
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 13, 2009
Location: central Wisconsin
Posts: 2,324
Alot has to do with the shooter, his skills and bench setup. Then the rifle has to be capable. I only keep rifles that will do it. Period. No rocket science there. And some rifles (like mine) do it with factory ammo.
warbirdlover is offline  
Old December 11, 2012, 06:37 PM   #56
ronl
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2007
Posts: 760
There are probably quite a few 1MOA guns out there, but very few 1MOA shooters. I have 4 subMOA shooters for sure, but I simply cannot shoot that well each and every time out. For example, I have a varmint AR that was put together with a Del-ton 20" mid weight barrel, and free floated. It will shoot less than an inch @ 200 most of the time. Out in the real world I have pulled the trigger on it twice with the same result; varmint retired. Do I care if it is an MOA weapon or not?, No. Out in the real world there is wind, temperature, barometric pressure and such to deal with. All have an effect on where the bullet ultimately impacts, and all up to the shooter to correct for. I pull the trigger and a gust of wind hits the bullet out at 75 pushing the bullet off target and it impacts just outside the 1MOA circle. Does that mean the gun is not an MOA shooter? No. It means I didn't account for the gust of wind. My 700 .308 shot a 5/32" group @ 100 on a windless day bipod and bagged on the back. That is how capable that particular rifle is. I am not that talented on a normal day. All I'm saying is that there are probably a lot more rifles that are capable of 1MOA or less than there are people capable of wringing that out of a weapon.
ronl is offline  
Old December 11, 2012, 10:05 PM   #57
FiveInADime
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 25, 2012
Posts: 361
Quote:
I shoot 10 shot groups all the time.Barrel is warm by then Barrel is warm by then,but a far cry from hot.
We live in different parts of the world, I guess. 10 shots out of any of my rifles in ONE minute and the barrels would burn my hand.

@nate45 Heat from the barrel can and will change your POI. Are you seriously saying that is just an excuse people use? Do you reload? Extreme changes in even ambient air temp. WILL change POI. I know shooting 10-shots in a row won't "hurt" anything, but to avoid extra throat erosion over the life of my barrels I choose not to shoot my rifles to the point where they are red hot.

You can listen to whomever you choose. The rest of the shooting community is going to judge their accuracy with 3 or 5 shot groups. And me, personally, I will be satisfied after I shoot several 5-shot groups and if most of them are Sub-MOA I feel ok about saying the rifle can shoot MOA.
FiveInADime is online now  
Old December 11, 2012, 10:25 PM   #58
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,402
Well, I don't know anyone who really consider 3 shots groups to be a good judge of a rifles capabilities.

Think of it like this... Here is a 3 shot group from my .204:




That group measures less than 0.4 MOA.

Now, imagine if I shot another 3 shot group that was a mirror image of this one, two shots together, but the third shot low instead of high.

As a 3 shot group, it's still 0.4 MOA but if I'd shot the top and bottom shots in ONE group, it's be 0.8 MOA and there's no way of knowing, from 3 shots, if that's likely to happen.

The rifle is still easily under 1 MOA but a 3 shot group might literally be telling you only 1/2 the story.

Problem is, it might not too. You just can't tell from 3 shots. Now, I've shot this particular rifle and load enough times under enough conditions to know that it shoots at or under 1/2 MOA "all day long". You'd really, really have to screw something up to approach 1 MOA with this gun. I've shot it out to 410 yards and it shoots about 3/4 MOA out that far.

But from those 3 shots, you don't know if the center of the group is going to be between the bottom two (which would be bad) or if it's between the bottom two and the top one (which would be good).

So, yeah, you need more than 3 or even 5 shots to really call a group but, as to the point of the thread, a "1 MOA rifle all day long." is not spectacular at all. In fact, I'd consider it to be a requirement for most of my shooting. If I can't count on 1 MOA, I want a new gun.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is online now  
Old December 11, 2012, 10:28 PM   #59
nate45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,746
There are 4 strings of fire which are the basic building blocks of any NRA high power rifle course of fire or tournament.

1. Slow Fire, standing - 10 rounds at 200 yards in 10 minutes.
2. Rapid Fire, sitting or kneeling - 10 rounds at 200 yards in 60 seconds.
3. Rapid Fire, 10 rounds prone - 300 yards in 70 seconds.
4. Slow Fire, 10 rounds prone - 500 or 600 yards in 10 minutes.

As we can see by the NRA rapid high power strings of fire, 10 rounds in a minute are a standard part of the course. Have been for years and years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FiveInADime
@nate45 Heat from the barrel can and will change your POI. Are you seriously saying that is just an excuse people use? Do you reload? Extreme changes in even ambient air temp. WILL change POI. I know shooting 10-shots in a row won't "hurt" anything, but to avoid extra throat erosion over the life of my barrels I choose not to shoot my rifles to the point where they are red hot.
When you talk about 10 shots making things red hot, throat erosion, etc you're way off of reality.
__________________
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
(>_<)
nate45 is online now  
Old December 11, 2012, 11:41 PM   #60
old roper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 11, 2007
Posts: 1,054
Nate45, Here is rules

http://www.6mmbr.com/highpowerbasics.html

Are we going into match type rifles or match shooting vs average type hunting or varmint rifles.
__________________
Semper Fi
Vietnam
VFW
old roper is offline  
Old December 12, 2012, 06:29 AM   #61
brmfan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 21, 2008
Posts: 531
The most important factor

All this talk about the rifles but little focus on the shooter! How many folks really understand how to shoot consistently accurate? Do you understand parallax and how to adjust your scope for it, do you take the glare off your iron sights, do you pull the trigger in between heartbeats, can you read wind and mirage, do you load the bipod correctly, is your cheek weld always the same, have you established your natural point of aim, are the stock screws torqued to the proper setting from when you cleaned it the last time.... get the idea?

There are many variables that go into shooting MOA and smaller that have to be considered before you even talk about the rifle itself.
I see so many folks who forget or have never been taught the fundamentals of basic rifle marksmanship and then get frustrated that their rifles 'won't shoot'.

Here's a related article from a while back that's worth reading:
http://www.accurateshooter.com/shoot...es-from-bipod/

Last edited by brmfan; December 12, 2012 at 06:58 AM.
brmfan is offline  
Old December 12, 2012, 07:39 AM   #62
4runnerman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 16, 2010
Location: Minnsota
Posts: 2,762
a "1 MOA rifle all day long." is not spectacular at all. In fact, I'd consider it to be a requirement for most of my shooting. If I can't count on 1 MOA, I want a new gun

Right on Brian. I have found there are 2 different groups out there. Your deer hunter and your target shooter. Two totally different worlds between them. Most times what a deer hunter is happy with a target shooter will go home and back to the work table. As i stated before 1 inch at 100 yards is not impressive

Are we going into match type rifles or match shooting vs average type hunting or varmint rifles

Very good point Old Roper. I have 7 rifles now,only 2 of which are not either comp barrels or heavy barreled rifles. 10 rounds in one minute does not heat them up very much at all.
__________________
NRA Certified RSO
NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional
4runnerman is online now  
Old December 12, 2012, 09:08 AM   #63
old roper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 11, 2007
Posts: 1,054
4runnerman, I don't disagree with you but you left out one important group of shooters like me.

All my deer/elk rifles had I had them build with bull barrels etc I could of used them for match shooting. Lot of hunters and varmint shooter spend money chasing accuracy. Myself if I only got MOA from one of my hunting rifles I'd be having good talk with gunsmith.

I seen guys at the club come with factory rifle and best they may do is 2" maybe little larger group but they shoot that every time and only different between him and me is price of the toys.

My varmint partner shoot some pretty nice varmint rifles but all his big game rifles are factory.
__________________
Semper Fi
Vietnam
VFW
old roper is offline  
Old December 12, 2012, 10:59 AM   #64
FiveInADime
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 25, 2012
Posts: 361
@nate45 and 4runnerman

I would say a service rifle in NRA high-power is better designed to mitigate heat than a sporter-barrel hunting rifle. In High Power (just one form of rifle competition) you usually just shoot one rapid fire string at a time right?

Also, no one adressed the fact that the air temp. and temp. of the barrel will change POI.

I live in Phoenix, AZ and I can attest that if you shoot 10 rounds in a row with a sporter rifle (in a short period of time) the POI will shift from the barrel heat. Maybe if you do your shooting in 30 degree temps things are different.
FiveInADime is online now  
Old December 12, 2012, 11:22 AM   #65
Art Eatman
Staff Lead
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX, USA
Posts: 22,362
I guess I'd be sceptical of claims for "all day long" as a function of the type of rifle. That is, a pencil barrel or a light sporter is very unlikely to be capable of ten-shot groups of one MOA or better. Even once, much less "all day long".

Sceptical, not automatically hollering, "...pants on fire!"
__________________
You're from BATFE? Come right in! I use all your fine products!
Art Eatman is offline  
Old December 12, 2012, 11:40 AM   #66
johnbt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 1999
Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
Posts: 6,004
"anyone who really consider 3 shots groups"

I know several, each one a successful deer hunter who figures they're never going to shoot more than 2 shots at a time; so if a rifle will shoot 3 in a row accurately it's good to go. Even that's sort of an afterthought, their primary concern is the cold bore accuracy.

Otherwise I think the larger the group, the more useful the info. I shoot a lot of 5-shot groups with some of my .22 rifles because that's the mag size.

John
johnbt is offline  
Old December 12, 2012, 11:50 AM   #67
nate45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,746
FiveInADime

Set up your rifle at the bench and take an hour to shoot ten shots if you want, do it over a week for all I care. Just shoot all ten shots at the same target. Then measure ALL the shots. Do that several times. Average them. It will be a very good indicator of whether your rifle, your load and you are capable of consistent 1 MOA groups.

One MOA and less is nice, but in no way necessary for a hunting rifle. To test my hunting rifles I shoot two shots fairly rapidly. If they are in an inch and a half circle at one hundred yards, they are plenty good for hunting.

However, if I shoot four are five two shot groups(if it is a 'group' even) in a row and all the shots from every group are touching, which is often the case with my rifles. I don't then claim that its a half MOA rifle, that can shoot half MOA groups all day long.
__________________
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
(>_<)
nate45 is online now  
Old December 12, 2012, 12:10 PM   #68
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,402
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnbt
I know several, each one a successful deer hunter who figures they're never going to shoot more than 2 shots at a time; so if a rifle will shoot 3 in a row accurately it's good to go. Even that's sort of an afterthought, their primary concern is the cold bore accuracy.

Otherwise I think the larger the group, the more useful the info. I shoot a lot of 5-shot groups with some of my .22 rifles because that's the mag size.
Yes, but that's suitability for a particular purpose not so much the capability of the gun. I do the same though, rarely shooting more than 3 shot groups because I don't really CARE what the theoretical ability of the rifle happens to be.

However, I have shot a lot of 3 shot groups and 10 of them makes a 30 shot group. I know the gun will shoot very well. It easily shoots 1/2 MOA 3 or 5 shot groups, and is easily at or under 3/4 for 30 shot aggregates.

I also know that it will very, very likely put any bullet within 1/4MOA of the POA (which is 1/2 MOA) at any given moment and that's all I care to know, in the end. Any woodchuck I can reasonably see, is going to be dead if I do my part. It's not the guns fault if I miss.

That's what it comes down to for me. Confidence. I want to know it's my fault if I miss.

I consider the aggregate of 10 3 shot groups from different days into one 30 shot group to be a much better indicator than even 1 30 shot group. It eliminates other variables, such as me having a bad day or wind or weather from one sitting and it's a lot more fun to shoot than 30 rounds all in one day. That would take me like 4 hours.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is online now  
Old December 12, 2012, 12:32 PM   #69
nate45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,746
Checking Barrel Heat & POI Shift

Above is a link to a relevant and informing video.
__________________
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
(>_<)
nate45 is online now  
Old December 12, 2012, 12:51 PM   #70
Come and take it.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2009
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 999
lots of variations to work with.


If you are shooting a gun all day, I also take you are at least putting 100 rounds downrange. In 100 rounds I would hardly believe they will all fit into under moa.

There are so many things that can go wrong.

No one can make perfect shots all day long in hundreds of rounds without at least contributing some level of shooter error himself.

No one can dope the wind precisely all day long either under variable wind conditions.
Come and take it. is offline  
Old December 12, 2012, 02:25 PM   #71
SHR970
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2011
Posts: 511
When I brought up the subject of three shot target I said
Quote:
I love the folks that show me a 3 shot target (their best of course) and try to convince me that their gun is all that and a bag of chips too.

If you were to show me 5 or more we now start to have a valid data set to work with. Let us assume you claim all targets were fired in the same session. If you tell me that you are holding you crosshairs dead center on the target for each group, the targets were at the same distance, and some groups are 3 o'clock from center, some at 11 o'clock from center, etc. then I count the aggregate grouping of all targets based on target dead center. Now the extreme edges of the 3 o'clock and 11 o'clock, etc. become my measuring points.

If I overlay each target onto a master and mark the groups so I have all 15+ shots on one piece of paper, we begin to see the bigger picture. Singular three shot groups may make MOA but the aggregate may fall well short.

This goes to what several have commented on earlier. There is a big difference in the gun itself being able to be sub. MOA consistently and the shooter behind the gun being sub MOA consistently.
SHR970 is offline  
Old December 12, 2012, 02:50 PM   #72
1stmar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2012
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,076
So what percentage of shooters can routinely shoot 1moa? 1/2moa? And under what conditions...
1stmar is offline  
Old December 12, 2012, 02:57 PM   #73
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,402
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1stmar
So what percentage of shooters can routinely shoot 1moa? 1/2moa? And under what conditions...
If the gun will do it, shooting MOA at 100 yards is not difficult.

I'm confident that I can shoot under 1 MOA at 100 yards, with a good gun under reasonable conditions, on any given day. Not that anyone wouldn't screw up a shot here and there but MOA isn't really terribly amazing.

1/2 MOA is a lot harder. That takes a good gun and a good shooter, to do that all the time.

Anything 1/4-ish is truly exceptional. There are certainly guns and shooters who do it but there's a lot more that can't than can.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is online now  
Old December 12, 2012, 03:26 PM   #74
btmj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 1, 2011
Location: Near St. Louis, Missouri
Posts: 747
The term "all day long" is a hyperbole, and any normal person with a functioning brain will understand that... it is like saying the barrel was red hot (was it really glowing red? no), it is like saying a bullet hits like a ton of bricks (really? no not really).

I am not a good shooter. When I go to the range, I see some good shooters, and I hope someday to be one of them. But I routinely shoot 1" 100 yard groups with my plain-jane-totally-stock weatherby 243. I shoot off of a sandbag under the forestock, I don't use one under the butt. Magnification is 3-9X. This not a high end set up, it is not even a mid-range set up. When I say "routinely", I mean that out of 6 targets, 3 or 4 targest will be 1" or less. If the gun can do it on 4 out of 6 targets, it COULD have done it on 6 out of 6 targets, but the shooter was not up to the task.

The right way to define group size (but no one does it this way) is to use the methods used by artillery and air-launched weapons... things like 2 sigma probability of hit (also called the 95% radius), or Circular Error Probable.
btmj is offline  
Old December 12, 2012, 06:33 PM   #75
4runnerman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 16, 2010
Location: Minnsota
Posts: 2,762
I would say a service rifle in NRA high-power is better designed to mitigate heat than a sporter-barrel hunting rifle. In High Power (just one form of rifle competition) you usually just shoot one rapid fire string at a time right?

fiveinadime- NRA-1000 yard- 25 shots in 20 minutes. Lots of time there,but i have never seen any one including me take more than 3 to 5 minutes to do this. Yes barrel is hot to a point,but accuracy is still very good.

No one can dope the wind precisely all day long either under variable wind conditions

Come and take it--We are talking 100 yards here. Unless we are talking 30 MPH winds there is not to much doping the wind going on here. At a greater distance yes for sure- Which is still one i will be working on for a long time to come. At 100 yards i have shot in some pretty gusty winds and it does not make to much of a difference on bullet,Maybe 1/4 inch or so, Still well with in 1 inch groups.


As for the Term all day long-When i go out on a Sat or SUn to Casselton rifle range with the 223- I will shoot 150 to 250 rounds a day. At 100 yards i will have an occasional flier here and there,but 99 plus % will be inside a 1 inch circle easily. No- Im not Annie Oklianny,but we are talking 1 inch. That is a large target for 100 yards
__________________
NRA Certified RSO
NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional

Last edited by 4runnerman; December 12, 2012 at 06:47 PM.
4runnerman is online now  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.16809 seconds with 8 queries