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Old December 11, 2012, 02:52 PM   #26
taylorce1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbat35
4. Ability to take down animals up to but not including deer
OP stated "not including deer" and in a couple of states the .22 WMR is legal for deer, IIRC Maine only says it isn't legal for moose and the other state that it is legal in is Vermont. Since the OP doesn't seem to want it for hunting as much as just shooting anyway.:
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Old December 11, 2012, 03:03 PM   #27
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Lots of things are legal but not good ideas. Lots of things are good ideas but not legal. Not gonna let what a state thinks is "minimum" guide me on this one and no way would I ever "choose" a rimfire on anything bigger than than a coon and never "use" a rimfire for anything bigger than a yote.
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Old December 11, 2012, 03:28 PM   #28
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I'm not saying that a .22 WMR is a good idea for deer hunting. I'm just saying since the OP said he isn't hunting deer it doesn't take the magnum rimfires off the table either. I reload so I can crank out 50 rounds of .223 for about the same price as 50 rounds of good .17 or .22 Magnum.
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Old December 12, 2012, 01:33 AM   #29
jbat35
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Quote:
In your OP you mentioned a .22 LR and 12 GA as your only two firearms. Now you say you burned out a barrel on a .243 in 3500 rounds? How fast did it go from shooting decent to shooting worse than 5 MOA? What did you do with the .243 after you burned the barrel out?
Reread my Op, notice the "Currently." I currently own a benelli cordoba and a ruger 10/22. I have had other guns, including the .243 savage that started 1 moa and worked its way to 5, which marked the point I threw a new barrel on it and sold it.

Quote:
Buying in bulk you'll be looking at $1000-2000 a year in ammunition costs, even for .223 depending on what you buy. Regardless of your living arrangements I'd be looking for a place I could go reload. For less than $1000, you could buy all new reloading equipment and load up your first 2000 rounds pretty easily.


Of course there will be some shipping that I didn't include but even at $800 for your first 2K reloads you save in the neighborhood of $200 the first year. The next 2K reloads you'll be looking around $400 +/- depending on what deals you can find on bullets, powder and primers (buy powder and primers local to save Hazmat fees). You may have to buy a brass trimming tool as well, but .223 brass lasts a long time, plus if you shoot at a public range there is always a ton of it lying around to pickup. If you are seriously going to shoot 2K a year I wouldn't even waste my time buying bulk ammunition, and go straight into reloading, even if my buddies were helping to offset the costs.
University apartments don't allow guns or ammunition on campus, and its not an option. As long as I am getting $4000 of room and board for free per semester, that takes priority to my want to have a place I could reload. Buying crates of ammunition, I can get 2000 rounds of decent federal or hornandy for $600 or $800 a crate. This is for either .223 or .308, but .308 does not match my volume.

Also, in my research, the amount I would save on ammo would be negligible, as when I am out to shoot I am out to shoot well. I also do not have the time to sit and reload that quantity of ammo, on top of other arrangements, and when I factor my time vs. working, it is not worth it. I would need to buy a progressive to make it worth my while.

Quote:
A 17 grain bullet at 2194 fps in a 20 mph wind is only 8.4"/8 MOA at 100 yards of windage full value. Shooting in adverse conditions and still being able to hit your target can be just as fun as shooting tiny groups IMO. I've shot a ton of prairie dogs and it is rarely a calm day in the towns, doesn't stop me from having fun with my .22 LR or WMR.
Wind here goes from 15-40 mph, and is never constant. At just 20 mph gusts I am looking at a .17 hmr drifting like you said up to 8 inches. If it was constant, and exactly to the side or behind/infront of me, then yea it would be fine. But wind doesn't just flow, it gusts. And 8 inches of horizontal gust is just a LOT, that is a hit or miss on a squirrel or prairie dog.

So far I am considering the .223 and the .22 wmr, both have traits I like, and I like that I can buy a .22 wmr with basically every thing I would like (light trigger, bull barrel, bedded) for 350, where as to get a quality rifle for .223 I will be looking at 700-1200 (no scopes included for either). But the .22 wmr lacks a little in range.


Edit: Well I won a bid on gunbroker for a nice savage .223, so the quest for a caliber is now over. Thanks a ton to everyone that has helped and contributed, every single post in this helped me somehow or in some way!!!

Last edited by jbat35; December 12, 2012 at 04:07 AM.
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Old December 12, 2012, 08:40 AM   #30
taylorce1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbat35
Reread my Op, notice the "Currently." I currently own a benelli cordoba and a ruger 10/22. I have had other guns, including the .243 savage that started 1 moa and worked its way to 5, which marked the point I threw a new barrel on it and sold it.
I read your OP a few times, and I read that you currently own a .22 lr and a 12 ga. Most people would add as well that they had some experience with other cartridges at that point, either that they had owned or shot in the past. You still didn't answer the question I asked about how fast it your rifle went from a MOA shooter to a 5 MOA shooter? Most people I know that have a consistent MOA shooting rifle will do something about it when they can't get it to shoot better than 1.5 MOA anymore, let alone shoot it to 5 MOA and then rebarrel.

Another thing why rebarrel and then sell? Why didn't you rebarrel to something else if you thought the .243 barrel burnt out too quickly? You could have probably changed it to a .223 for less money than the new Savage you bought. Why spend the cost of a new/used take off barrel, even if you installed it yourself just to sell a rifle? A Savage action is worth between $250 and $400+ depending on features.

I asked why you though it was a barrel burner because I have an old Parker Hale Mauser that I bough used 22 years ago. For years I used it as a varmint rifle shooting prairie dogs and coyotes, besides hunting deer and pronghorn as it was my only rifle. I've probably shot more than 5K rounds through it in dog towns getting it past too hot to touch and it still holds 1.5 MOA these days and it never was consistently better than MOA in my hands from the day I bought it. I'll get around to rebarreling it someday along with glass bedding it but I don't hunt with it much anymore and it probably only sees a box of factory ammunition a year of that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbat35
University apartments don't allow guns or ammunition on campus, and its not an option. As long as I am getting $4000 of room and board for free per semester, that takes priority to my want to have a place I could reload. Buying crates of ammunition, I can get 2000 rounds of decent federal or hornandy for $600 or $800 a crate. This is for either .223 or .308, but .308 does not match my volume.
Yes you can but you stated you didn't want surplus because you wanted to shoot "well 90% of the time."

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbat35
I singled out surplus as I am out to shoot well 90% of the time, and will buy more expensive ammo over cheap because I want better groups.
Now you are quoting prices of "new" surplus and Hornady SM ammunition. What happened to buying more "expensive" over "cheap" for better groups? I mean if your really that serious about shooting groups why aren't you buying Federal Gold Match? I'm sure the Federal M193 and Hornady SM will shoot well, but it isn't going to be as good as Federal GM ammunition. Besides are you seriously going to lay down $600-800 for 2000 rounds before finding out what your rifle likes?

I get that most Universities aren't gun friendly as they are usually run by a very liberal board of directors. So you have to store your firearms and ammunition off campus, can't you reload there? I get it if a friend or family member is storing the guns and ammo for you and doesn't want you over there reloading or if your paying for gun storage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbat35
Also, in my research, the amount I would save on ammo would be negligible, as when I am out to shoot I am out to shoot well. I also do not have the time to sit and reload that quantity of ammo, on top of other arrangements, and when I factor my time vs. working, it is not worth it. I would need to buy a progressive to make it worth my while.
You said you wanted to shoot around 2K rounds a year, and you shoot nearly every weekend. So for 2K rounds a year you shoot 40 rounds a week on average. It takes me an hour on a single stage press to reload 50 rounds of better quality .223 ammunition than I can buy, about 1.5 hours if I have to polish the cases, 2 hours if I have to trim. The press kit I showed you will allow you to more than double that an hour. So for one hour of work you could shoot for a whole month before you needed to sit at a bench again. Or you could sit for six hours and load a 6 month supply of ammunition, once you finished load development, which from my experience with .223 doesn't take very long 20-50 rounds to find a good varmint load.


Ammunition costs aren't going to get any cheaper nor is the equipment to reload, you would be far better off investing in the equipment now while you money isn't going toward things like rent and utilities, mortgages, or insurance. Trust me the equipment will pay for itself very quickly as you start adding more firearms to your stable. However you can't see past the shooting stage yet, to realize you don't need a $1200-1500 progressive set up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbat35
Wind here goes from 15-40 mph, and is never constant. At just 20 mph gusts I am looking at a .17 hmr drifting like you said up to 8 inches. If it was constant, and exactly to the side or behind/infront of me, then yea it would be fine. But wind doesn't just flow, it gusts. And 8 inches of horizontal gust is just a LOT, that is a hit or miss on a squirrel or prairie dog.
Your wind isn't anything special nor do you live in the only place that it blows harder than 20 mph, or that it gusts, shifts, and swirls. Like I said learning to read wind and still hitting your target is as much fun as making small groups IMO. Once you learn to read the wind you can usually make an 80% or better hits on target in a dog town, and better percentages on larger targets. I've used my .22 WMR effectively all the way out to 150 yards, using Federal 30 grain TNT ammunition. Don't get me wrong wind is and can be a PITA, but if your going to learn to shoot effectively you're going to have to shoot in the wind and just have to learn how to read it. If I had to wait for a calm day to enjoy shooting I wouldn't shoot.
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Old December 13, 2012, 06:04 PM   #31
jbat35
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I don't understand the hostility nor the negativity and insistence that you give in your posts. I have reasons for what I say and ask. If I say I cannot do something, or that I am doing something, then that is my choice and my plan regardless of if you would or not. We are all members of this forum here, and if we made it here most of us have looked into most topics that are large parts of the firearms hobby, enough to know if it is for them. This topic is also solved, I got my gun in a .223 caliber, why keep arguing about my choice? This is my last post, to straighten up some stuff, and then I am done with this thread.

Quote:
I read your OP a few times, and I read that you currently own a .22 lr and a 12 ga. Most people would add as well that they had some experience with other cartridges at that point, either that they had owned or shot in the past. You still didn't answer the question I asked about how fast it your rifle went from a MOA shooter to a 5 MOA shooter? Most people I know that have a consistent MOA shooting rifle will do something about it when they can't get it to shoot better than 1.5 MOA anymore, let alone shoot it to 5 MOA and then rebarrel.
I have shot guns of many different calibers, and there are very few I have not shot. I haven't shot a .338 lapua, .222 Remington, some of the high power magnums, and .17 hm2 of all the common calibers you would find in your local cabelas/scheels. Doesn't mean though that I know much if anything other than a standard assumption about the flight characteristics or experience based knowledge that the enthusiasts here do. I was open to many, and had no idea what people may say so I stayed open. I assumed that there was no need to mention the .243 as well as the .22-250 as they are common "burnout" calibers when fired often. Once the rifle hit 3 moa, we ran it really hard as a "lets see how hot this sucker can get." Barrel was shot, I had the replacement already, and wanted to see how much temperature had effect on accuracy as we see smoking ar's all the time at the range.

Quote:
Another thing why rebarrel and then sell? Why didn't you rebarrel to something else if you thought the .243 barrel burnt out too quickly? You could have probably changed it to a .223 for less money than the new Savage you bought. Why spend the cost of a new/used take off barrel, even if you installed it yourself just to sell a rifle? A Savage action is worth between $250 and $400+ depending on features.
Because I didn't need to buy a new barrel, a friend of mine did a conversion and traded it for some work he needed done on his car. A brake job with parts already included for a new barrel, that's not a bad deal at all. And with a fresh barrel it sold for a quite near new price.

Quote:
Yes you can but you stated you didn't want surplus because you wanted to shoot "well 90% of the time."
Quote:
Now you are quoting prices of "new" surplus and Hornady SM ammunition. What happened to buying more "expensive" over "cheap" for better groups? I mean if your really that serious about shooting groups why aren't you buying Federal Gold Match? I'm sure the Federal M193 and Hornady SM will shoot well, but it isn't going to be as good as Federal GM ammunition. Besides are you seriously going to lay down $600-800 for 2000 rounds before finding out what your rifle likes?
That was federal premium I was quoting as it is the most expensive of the ammo that my bulk retailer has. If you know where to look, and when people get desperate, you can get great ammo for less than 40% store price.

Quote:
You said you wanted to shoot around 2K rounds a year, and you shoot nearly every weekend. So for 2K rounds a year you shoot 40 rounds a week on average. It takes me an hour on a single stage press to reload 50 rounds of better quality .223 ammunition than I can buy, about 1.5 hours if I have to polish the cases, 2 hours if I have to trim. The press kit I showed you will allow you to more than double that an hour. So for one hour of work you could shoot for a whole month before you needed to sit at a bench again. Or you could sit for six hours and load a 6 month supply of ammunition, once you finished load development, which from my experience with .223 doesn't take very long 20-50 rounds to find a good varmint load.
When you can reload match grade ammo for less than .40 cents a round, let me know.

Quote:
Ammunition costs aren't going to get any cheaper nor is the equipment to reload, you would be far better off investing in the equipment now while you money isn't going toward things like rent and utilities, mortgages, or insurance. Trust me the equipment will pay for itself very quickly as you start adding more firearms to your stable. However you can't see past the shooting stage yet, to realize you don't need a $1200-1500 progressive set up.
When prices do go up and gun stores start foreclosing more and more, then I will still be sitting where I am, getting the discount ammo the way I still do. And in that day the powder, primers, brass, bullets, and other consumables in the process will be just as expensive. The presses may even be the cheapest part at that point, as soon anyone can jump in and produce a high quality metal lever and sell it for cheap versus the regulated and taxed components that went up in price most likely because of government pressure/regulation that doesn't apply to 1048 ansi carbon steel forged into a lever.


Quote:
Your wind isn't anything special nor do you live in the only place that it blows harder than 20 mph, or that it gusts, shifts, and swirls. Like I said learning to read wind and still hitting your target is as much fun as making small groups IMO. Once you learn to read the wind you can usually make an 80% or better hits on target in a dog town, and better percentages on larger targets. I've used my .22 WMR effectively all the way out to 150 yards, using Federal 30 grain TNT ammunition. Don't get me wrong wind is and can be a PITA, but if your going to learn to shoot effectively you're going to have to shoot in the wind and just have to learn how to read it. If I had to wait for a calm day to enjoy shooting I wouldn't shoot.
Your opinion is your opinion, but with this caliber, I will be shooting it to a decent extent. I'm not going to be content with shooting a .223 to just 200 yards all day every day. I will be pushing it a lot. And when your already pushing a caliber to its limits, and already working with the massive amount of wind compensation, I would rather not use a bullet that weights 17 grains. And at my school, it has become common practice for other students to go out with bed sheets and longboards, so think what you want about the amount of wind we have, as today we have around 24 mph. And yes, wind does gust as well as change direction. I have yet to hear of steady stream and direction wind for more than a minute at a time that goes in 1 direction + or - 1 degree and the same tol for its speed.
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Old December 13, 2012, 09:31 PM   #32
Edward429451
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Cheaper calibers without being surplus.

The first thing that popped in my head when I read your post is "reload".

Everything is cheaper when you reload, and the ammo is better. Heck, I can reload 38's & 357's for cheaper than decent 22 LR rounds.
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Old December 13, 2012, 09:36 PM   #33
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cheap without surplus, accurate to 100 yards and able to kill varmints... I would say that either 223 or 9mm would handle these tasks very well. the 9mm maxes out at about 125-150 yards for effective range but is much cheaper, more fun to shoot and offers longer barrel life than 223.


other than that I can't think of any others.
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Old December 13, 2012, 11:08 PM   #34
taylorce1
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I wasn't trying to be hostile or negative to you, just asking questions because what you're saying isn't adding up to me. To me the things you are stating are from a very narrow point of view because of very limited experience. You have more resources for information readily available that I didn't have 22 years ago when I started down this path, take advantage of them.

A few things will always remain constant I've found out. People are always looking for something they think will make them better instead of focusing on making themselves better. I even fall into this trap every now and then, but a lot less than I used to. Handloading will always be cheaper than buying ammunition. That doesn't mean you'll spend less money, it just that you get to shoot more or buy more guns with your money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbat35
I was open to many, and had no idea what people may say so I stayed open. I assumed that there was no need to mention the .243 as well as the .22-250 as they are common "burnout" calibers when fired often.
That hasn't been my experience in several thousand rounds shot through the .243 by me. Will the barrels accuracy erode faster than a .223? Probably, but they usually don't go in 3500 rounds like you stated. I have no experience with the .22-250 but I know several guys who do and yeah they rebarrel every 5-6 years on average, but they have put far more than 3500 rounds down the barrel. You can roach a .223 barrel out very fast as well, the only reason AR's are more tolerant of high volume shooting is because of the chrome lined barrel most of them use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbat35
Because I didn't need to buy a new barrel, a friend of mine did a conversion and traded it for some work he needed done on his car. A brake job with parts already included for a new barrel, that's not a bad deal at all. And with a fresh barrel it sold for a quite near new price.
So you got a free barrel and that made it cheap. I get that, but at $85-125 for a new take off barrel from Northlander I could have easily rebarreled 3-4 times for the cost of a new Savage rifle. So if you went back to .243 and it only lasted for 3000 rounds each time you could have shot 9K more rounds for the cost buying a new Axis rifle and over 12K if you include the free barrel in all that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jbat35
When you can reload match grade ammo for less than .40 cents a round, let me know.
I can do that easily at about 37 cents a round using 1K new Lapua brass, Federal GM primers, Sierra 69 grain Match Kings, and Ramshot TAC powder. Thats if I figure I can only load the brass five times, if I figure I can get ten loads before I have to trash the brass then it drops to 32 cents a round. If I use non-match new brass I can get it down to 20-27 cents a round. If I buy once fired brass, surplus powder, 55 grain FMJ, and regular small rifle primers I can load the first 1K rounds for 26 cents each, and each 1K after that for 17 cents per round.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jbat35
When prices do go up and gun stores start foreclosing more and more, then I will still be sitting where I am, getting the discount ammo the way I still do. And in that day the powder, primers, brass, bullets, and other consumables in the process will be just as expensive.
Your dollar will still go further reloading than ever buying ammunition. You'll still be money ahead buying in now rather than later. My point was if you have to store your firearms and ammunition off campus, why can't you reload off campus as well?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbat35
Your opinion is your opinion, but with this caliber, I will be shooting it to a decent extent. I'm not going to be content with shooting a .223 to just 200 yards all day every day. I will be pushing it a lot. And when your already pushing a caliber to its limits, and already working with the massive amount of wind compensation, I would rather not use a bullet that weights 17 grains.
Again your thinking isn't adding up. A the weight of the bullet has nothing to do with it's ability to buck the wind. Velocity and Ballistic Coefficient overcome the wind. Your little 17 grain bullet with a BC of .218 will do better in the wind than a 110 grain .308 caliber bullet out of the .30 Carbine at the same speed. My point with the "your wind isn't special" comment was to quit worrying about the equipment, learn the dope and become a better shooter which is what you are wanting to do isn't it?
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