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Old December 15, 2012, 11:25 AM   #76
WC145
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Why are you putting up such an argument against lasers? I don't see anyone here trying to convince you or anyone else that lasers are some kind of super sight, the all that ends all, it's just some of the guys saying that they see a place for lasers in their use of defensive arms and why.

I see lasers as useful tools, I also view red dot sights the same way. Through the use of both, I've found that I prefer a target focused shooting style and lasers and red dot sights allow that with greater speed, accuracy, and range than iron sights alone. Red dots, lasers, and iron sights all have their place on handguns and can be used together, no different than using them on a rifle. Last year I shot in an IDPA style BUG match using my laser gripped J-frame and I smoked the competition thanks to the laser. Guys that usually shoot similar scores as me were nowhere close and the difference was that I was looking at my targets and could see where my shot was going before I got my sights lined up. I was making my shots while the other guys were still raising their guns and looking for their front sights. I see the same advantage when shooting rifles with red dots vs open sights. To me, the tactical advantage offered by being able to focus on your target instead of your front sight is great enough that it makes tools like lasers and red dot sights worth trying. I've found them to be a worthwhile addition to the tool box, again, not to replace iron sights, but to supplement them. As for night sights, I can take them or leave them, they are on several of my guns but I don't find that they offer any big advantage. I find a good light (hand held or gun mounted) to be a much more important accessory, I need to see and ID my target before I can shoot it and I can see a black front sight on a lit target.

BTW, I wear progressive bifocals, and they do make focusing on the front sight more difficult. I have to tilt my head back to find the sweet spot in the lenses and that makes my target even blurrier than it might normally be. This is another area where the laser and red dots shine, because I'm viewing both the target and the dot on single focal plane so that they're both in perfect focus.
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Old December 15, 2012, 12:04 PM   #77
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I wear progressive bifocals, and they do make focusing on the front sight more difficult
No doubt about that. I'm considering getting some monofocal glasses just for shooting so I have less trouble focusing on my front sights.

You young pups will find out what we're talking about soon enough. In the meantime, if someone finds a laser useful they should use it. If not, don't.
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Old December 15, 2012, 12:52 PM   #78
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Well keep on using the force, Luke. I'm going to use something I can see WHEN I can't see the irons.
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Old December 15, 2012, 01:05 PM   #79
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In the meantime, if someone finds a laser useful they should use it. If not, don't
Quite possibly the best thing to come out of this thread yet.
I'm 29, so I guess I could still be considered a young pup by some of the guys here, but my vision is still what it was when I was younger. None of my full sized handguns have a laser.

I do however have one on my S&W 642. I know there are some people here that are absolutely amazing with a J-frame, but I am not one of those guys.

I typically only carry it as a BUG, but that laser makes me quite a bit better past 7 yards with that little piece then I can do with just the iron sights. For me, the laser has found its place.
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Old December 15, 2012, 01:10 PM   #80
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There's much wrong with your statement. Let me break it down.

1) Soldiers and SWAT using them doesn't prove that they're good for us civilians. It proves that with what they are doing, and with their rules of engagement, they have some use. Do you spend your time holding insurgents at gun point? Do you spend time clearing out rooms and shooting hostage takers (iron sights would work better in this situation most of the time)? Do you train to effectively use all of the tools at your disposal many hours each week (so you aren't fixated on just the one aiming device)?
There's much wrong with your reading comprehension.

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Soldiers/SWAT using them only proves that they work well as an offensive tool.
emphasis added.

Then I went on to say I only have them on a gun I keep for my wife to use in an emergency (she doesn't shoot enough to aim instinctively), and a gun that came with one.

Maybe I didn't make it quite obvious enough that I wasn't making a case for lasers. To reiterate; I can see how they could be useful for people with fading eyesight, or in a few specific situations, but - as I said before - for me they're not worth it.

As far as me watching too many movies - not so much. We have small kids, so the only movies I get to watch usually feature cartoon animals rather than SWAT teams.
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Old December 15, 2012, 01:57 PM   #81
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Lasers are cool and all, but I really want an RMR on one of my Glocks. I think it would accomplish about the same thing without projecting the beam.
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Old December 15, 2012, 02:30 PM   #82
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I have RMR02s on my FNP45T and FNS9, great sights and they work extremely well, almost like cheating.
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Old December 17, 2012, 12:22 PM   #83
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Maybe I didn't make it quite obvious enough that I wasn't making a case for lasers. To reiterate; I can see how they could be useful for people with fading eyesight, or in a few specific situations, but - as I said before - for me they're not worth it.
My bad. I re-read what you wrote and realize where I got it wrong. You were making the case that they can be useful in certain situations that SWAT/Soldiers/etc find themselves in. Not as much in a typical civilian self defense situation. I apologize.

Luckily, it gave the the opportunity to attempt to debunk anyone using the "If it's good enough for military/swat/whatever, it's good enough for us!" arguments, if it ever came to that.

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Yes I am - why because of all military people these are one of the groups who's primary job is direct engagement.
Care to rebut my argument? Just curious. The whole, "the military uses it, so we should too!" doesn't work in almost every circumstance.
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Old December 17, 2012, 01:53 PM   #84
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I'll put a laser on my gun when they make one that can burn .45 cal holes at 100 yards.
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Old December 17, 2012, 04:17 PM   #85
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The whole, "the military uses it, so we should too!" doesn't work in almost every circumstance.
I agree entirely.

Notice nobody ever makes that argument about military food .
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Old December 17, 2012, 07:23 PM   #86
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The whole, "the military uses it, so we should too!" doesn't work in almost every circumstance.
No offense, but:
Ever hear of 1911? How about Glock? Beretta? Sig Sauer? H&K? All these companies market products that were directly developed for the military? They seem to work pretty well...

Do you have a flash suppressor on your AR? How about the AR itself?

Lots and lots of military technology is directly involved in our guns and accessories and it works.... That's not to say every military device is appropriate but much of it is..
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Old December 17, 2012, 11:43 PM   #87
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I probably am in the major minority here but at night, I do not want any light attached to me or my pistol. Especially in my home. I know my house, where things are where it is backlit by windows and where it is dark as the pit. I dont want any light giving away where I am. Especially not one attached to something, like my weapon that i need to be holding in front of my body
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Old December 18, 2012, 06:00 AM   #88
dayman
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Lots and lots of military technology is directly involved in our guns and accessories and it works.... That's not to say every military device is appropriate but much of it is..
I think we're pretty much on the same page. I don't think anyone was saying that military gear isn't good - just that the military using something doesn't necessarily mean it works (or is needed) for civilian self defense.

"I have a hard time picking up a sight picture at night, a laser helps" is a good reason to use a laser.

"SWAT/the USMC uses them" is not such a great reason by it's self.

If you've already decided you need a specific piece of equipment (pistol, rifle, laser, etc) finding out what the military uses is probably a good idea. You can be fairly sure that if the military uses something it's been pretty thoroughly vetted and tested. But they do have a lot of equipment that - while very well built - has no real purpose for SD.
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Old December 18, 2012, 08:34 AM   #89
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Someone made an interesting statement to support "what's good for the military is good for civilians" that I want to examine.

Ever hear of 1911? How about Glock? Beretta?
I own several 1911's, a Glock 17 and previously a PT-99 (Beretta knock-off). All are way too big for me to carry. The PT-99 was strictly a range gun (broke after 6 months of use); The Glock was my primary Home Defense gun for awhile, but I didn't like the trigger safety and ended up not keeping a round chambered - put it back in the safe in favor of my old S&W 659 for HD. I carry a Ruger LC9, not something you will see any military using. Other useful handguns that I would consider: Rhorbaugh R9 and the Boberg - also not something the military would ever use.


Sig Sauer? H&K?
Too big and bulky - the ones the military uses are way too big for civilian concealed carry. But I agree, both companies make fantastic guns for range use or perhaps Home Defense.

Do you have a flash suppressor on your AR? How about the AR itself?

Yeah, it came with it - I could care less about the flash suppressor. It does nothing for me. As for the AR, it's my least favorite rifle - sits in the safe and gets absolutely no range time. For rifles, I end up shooting the following way more: Savage 110 30-06; Cricket .22 with my kid; old H&R 22 magnum; AC556 for kicks and giggles;

All that being said, I like military style rifles (just not the AR) and handguns used by the Military - I just don't shoot them as much as I do guns that were specifically made for the civilian market (I know the AC556 wasn't made for the civilian market, but it's not a military rifle either).
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Old December 18, 2012, 09:20 AM   #90
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PPQ with a C5L green laser and strobe with my custom carry holser. Nuff said.

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Old December 18, 2012, 10:17 AM   #91
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Personally, I have no use for lasers. A couple of my carry gums have tritium sights, but that's it. My "nightstand gun" is a 18.5" Mossberg pump with low-recoil 00 buck.
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Old December 18, 2012, 10:30 AM   #92
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I probably am in the major minority here but at night, I do not want any light attached to me or my pistol. Especially in my home. I know my house, where things are where it is backlit by windows and where it is dark as the pit. I dont want any light giving away where I am. Especially not one attached to something, like my weapon that i need to be holding in front of my body
That is probably the biggest draw back of a laser. A rectile or some type of night sight doesn't have this draw-back. Unfortunately rectiles are too bulky for a CCW. They also don't offer some of the benefits that a laser has in close quarters battle, such as aiming when shooting from the hip.

Of course with my LCP I don't plan on activating the laser until I have acquired the target. Although mine doesn't have an on/off switch, it's easy enough for me to draw and get the gun pointed at a target without activating the laser. I do practice this.

In the "Concealed Carry Handguns 2013" magazine there is an article on lasers. The author, Caleb Goodings, says lasers enable people to aim more quickly. I find that to be the case with me. He says he also found that lasers made him more accurate at 25 yards. I don't normally shoot my LCP at that distance, but I'm sure that would be the case based on what I've found at shorter distances.
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Old December 18, 2012, 02:57 PM   #93
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Duty weapons, green lasers/white lights....

I've owned & shot a few handguns with laser aimers(CT Lasergrips). They have limited practical uses on a concealment/duty sidearm but are NOT a replacement for marksmanship or skill training.
I owned a M&P 9x19mm full size in 2011/early 2012. I'd made plans to carry it as a armed security sidearm. I considered buying a X5 mag extender(more 9mm rounds) & a Viridin green X5L type laser & white light.
A set-up like that would add weight but lower pistol recoil & offer a possible deterrent to a lethal force event. Bad guys don't like being shot.
Savvy(ie career crooks) felons also avoid the armed cops or guards who are well armed or can use tactical equipment(See Ben Affleck's The Town ).
Crimson Trace & Lasermax often promote their systems to armed citizens & sworn LE agencies by saying how the use of lasers(laser aiming systems) help deter violent crimes. This is true but don't rely on it 100%.
R&D by the US military has also shown that the human eye is drawn to movement. Aiming a bright green laser dot & firing a well aimed shot can help reduce the risk to bystanders or to the armed citizen.

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Old December 18, 2012, 03:19 PM   #94
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I tried a crimson trace on my P229 and I didn't like it at all, but I know of several people who use them very well. I probably didn't give the laser enough of a chance. I believe they offer a real advantage when firing from cover or in awkward positions. There is also a real deterrent when you paint someone in the vitals with a laser, it gets there attention and may make them drop the knife or turn and run. They know you mean business!
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Old December 19, 2012, 04:52 AM   #95
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There's one last this I would like to add.
And let me start by saying - yet again - that I'm not really a fan of lasers for my own use. However.....
In my experience - unless it's quite foggy or dusty - you can't actually see the beam of the laser, and you can really only see the light from the laser if it's within a few degrees of being pointed at you.
So the idea that people will be able to trace the laser back to your position is kind of over blown (unless you live somewhere that's perpetually foggy like, say Seattle ).
If it's pointed at someone they'll probably be able to see that the lights on, but the point of SD isn't really to be sneaky anyway.
In movies they must use some fog to make the beams visible - it's more dramatic that way - but in the real world the beam seldom shows up. I can still remember the disappointment I felt as kid when I got a laser pointer and all it did was make a dot.
So, take them or leave them, but don;t worry about some brilliant red line leading back to you.
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