The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 13, 2012, 02:37 AM   #26
mohr308
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 15, 2012
Location: Western New York
Posts: 423
REBS

I use the cci#41's in my AR with H335 and 65gr SGK's, best combo I have tried, took me a long time to get it right. I was using the cci 400's when I started working up this load, but just never had great groupings. switched to the 41's and the rest is history! Basically, I wasted a lot of lead and money with the 400's Purchase a few cases so you dont run out!
__________________
Lock and load, the zombies (democrats) are coming (to take your guns)!
mohr308 is offline  
Old December 13, 2012, 02:59 PM   #27
rebs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 10, 2012
Posts: 2,285
I just got back from the range.
I fired about 80 of my reloads this time with CCI #41 primers instead of my usual CCI #400 primers and I did not see any difference in accuracy, groups, firing pin dent or anything else. Even the little dent from the bolt slamming closed was the same.
rebs is offline  
Old December 14, 2012, 01:50 AM   #28
mohr308
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 15, 2012
Location: Western New York
Posts: 423
what length barrel do you have? did you shoot just the same charge weight? try working up the load and see if you can find another sweet spot. I have a 1:9 twist 16" barrel.

what is your round made up of? Brass, COL, powder..etc
__________________
Lock and load, the zombies (democrats) are coming (to take your guns)!
mohr308 is offline  
Old December 14, 2012, 11:33 AM   #29
rebs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 10, 2012
Posts: 2,285
Quote:
what length barrel do you have? did you shoot just the same charge weight? try working up the load and see if you can find another sweet spot. I have a 1:9 twist 16" barrel.
I hjave a 16" barrel. Yes I did shoot the same charge weight 24.9 gr of H335 with a 55 gr flat base hollow point. Would you think I should increase or decrease the load ?
rebs is offline  
Old December 14, 2012, 12:06 PM   #30
mohr308
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 15, 2012
Location: Western New York
Posts: 423
is that also a 1:9 twist? I've had better luck with 65gr (heavier) bullets than the 55's. With the 55's I cant get better than a 1"+ group. The 65 SGK, I can pull off .5" or less groupings. This is my load, 65 SGK, 24.5gr H335, CCI41 primers, LC brass, COL 2.250". I did have a grouping also @ 25.1gr of H335, but never tested it further :/

I have currently loaded up some Nosler Varmageddon 55gr bullets with H335, but have yet to test them. I really hope I can pull off some nice groupings so I can get some use out of the 500 of them I have!

If you dont want to switch bullets, maybe try working up the load again, what brand bullet are you using?

good luck
__________________
Lock and load, the zombies (democrats) are coming (to take your guns)!
mohr308 is offline  
Old December 14, 2012, 03:04 PM   #31
rebs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 10, 2012
Posts: 2,285
Quote:
I have currently loaded up some Nosler Varmageddon 55gr bullets with H335, but have yet to test them. I really hope I can pull off some nice groupings so I can get some use out of the 500 of them I have!
I just bought 1000 of these bullets and I can get 1/2" groups with them, they are excellent. I load 24.0 gr of H335 with COL of 2.230.
But I cannot get the Hornady 55 gr FMJBT to shoot well at all.
rebs is offline  
Old December 14, 2012, 05:39 PM   #32
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,418
That's not really a surprise. There are three reasons:

First, unless you get a really exceptional lot, FMJ's are rarely as accurate as anything made with a hollow point, as the Varmageddon bullets are. That's because forming the base of the bullet as the bottom of the jacket cup is much easier to do with perfect symmetry than packing an open base with lead is. The squareness and symmetry of the base is much more critical to accuracy than the nose of the bullet is. This is because, as the bullet leaves the muzzle, the gas jet of muzzle blast plays off of it. If this part of the bullet is in any way asymmetrical, its the same as having an uneven muzzle crown. It allows gas to start escaping from one side before the other. This both yaws the bullet and then pushes the bullet away from the fist point to vent gas, introducing a drift vector to its flight path that takes it off the target center. The drift is too slow to introduce significant drag opposite its direction, so it pretty much continues until the bullet hits the target.

Second, the FMJ has a small boat tail. A boat tail helps a bullet's drag reduce, so it carries further, but it is easier to make a square bottom symmetrical than a boat tail, so, again, you take on another loss of precision. Moreover, if you have any even tiny asymmetry in your muzzle crown, the boat tail takes longer to completely clear the muzzle than a square base, during which time the muzzle blast jets get extra time to try to throw it off center. It's not that there aren't good boat tails match bullets, but they have hollow points so the base so the less critical nose is formed last, while the more critical base is formed first and best; just the opposite of the FMJ. The second operation is harder to keep perfectly on the axial line of the first. They expect perfect crown symmetry. But, in general, flat base bullets are easier to make shoot accurately until you get out to 300 yards or so, where the lower drag of the boat tail will help reduce wind influence and will shoot flatter.

Third, the FMJ BT has a crimp cannelure. Cannelures are not necessarily a bad thing, but they require some precision to knurl into bullets without introducing distortion of the bullet. Putting in a cannelure can make a good bullet bad. Generally, I think Hornady does this pretty well, but it's hard to keep it as perfect as it is in a smooth sided bullet.

My .308 rifles that can shoot half moa groups or better with match bullets can only make the Hornady 150 grain FMJ BT shoot to about 1 moa. I would expect a similar limitation with your AR and .223 bullets. It's just the nature of the beast.

Incidentally, that you saw no differences with the #41 doesn't mean the accuracy potential with it isn't better, especially at longer ranges. A chronograph will tell you if the velocity consistency is improved any. But you'd still have to expect to recheck your load work up. The rule of thumb when you change primer is to drop the load 5% and edge back up while watching for an accuracy sweet spot.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member
Unclenick is offline  
Old December 14, 2012, 07:16 PM   #33
rebs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 10, 2012
Posts: 2,285
unclenick
Thank you for the detailed reply, I appreciate it and perhaps will give up on the fmjbt and also give the #41's another try using your advice.
rebs is offline  
Old December 14, 2012, 09:53 PM   #34
reynolds357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 2,439
I thought Federal was the only company that made primers.
reynolds357 is offline  
Old December 17, 2012, 11:38 AM   #35
browninghunter86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 2011
Posts: 524
I tried some Fed 210M primers and nothing magical happened for me
browninghunter86 is offline  
Old December 17, 2012, 10:56 PM   #36
reynolds357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 2,439
Federal has a lot to lot consistency that the others seem to not be able to achieve. I have had a bad lot of CCI and a bad lot of Remingtons. Never had a problem with Winchesters, but never got exceptional accuracy from them either. I have not bought anything but Federal in over ten years so to be honest, my opinion is dated.
reynolds357 is offline  
Old December 18, 2012, 10:16 AM   #37
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,418
Reynolds357,

I started using Federals in pistol matches a good thirty years ago and have tended to stick with them. However, I recommend you take a look at the Russian TulAmmo primers. They are a bit harder to seat (you may want to swage or use a Wilson primer pocket profiling tool with your cases to ease that), but the consistency of their rifle primers has been very impressive for me. My last test on an '03 Springfield got me about 1/3 lower velocity SD than the 210M's I have with the same basic load.

Mind you, that kind of thing can vary lot-to-lot. I've heard of one lot of the Russian large pistol primers that caused problems, but most of the rest of the reports are good. The Federal 205M's and 210M's have been consistently good for a long time, so they are still my standard to compare against in guns without floating firing pins, and I don't know if that long term consistency will hold for the Russian primers or not. The Russian primers used to be half the price of Federal, but as their reputation has grown, so has their price. Graf and Sons now charges almost as much for them.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member
Unclenick is offline  
Old December 20, 2012, 11:07 PM   #38
reynolds357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 2,439
I have never seen the TULAMMO primers. Will look for them. Any opinion on Wolf? Lot of people at 1000yd range are switching to them, but I am stubborn and change very little until forced to do so.
reynolds357 is offline  
Old December 22, 2012, 09:16 AM   #39
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,418
I've been using TulAmmo because they offer NATO spec primers for the gas guns. I understand from a couple of independent tests I've seen that the Wolf are identical in performance. They may well come from the same plant in different packaging. The foil color between the anvil and priming mix is a different color, but that's probably done to order. I don't know anything else about them.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member
Unclenick is offline  
Old December 22, 2012, 09:45 AM   #40
oldmanFCSA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 8, 2010
Location: Osceola, WI
Posts: 148
I have a different use rating.

1. Federal - I start building loads with Federal primers because I have found they are made with a softer material which allows for easier pressure indications.

2. Winchester - if the Federals show pressure signs before I reach my goals AND the brass does not show pressure signs.

3. Remington - similar to #2 - used Remington a lot in past - cost and availability has stopped me.

4. CCI - made with hardest cup material in my testing - I use these for maximum loadings where brass may be damaged also because of intense loading. CCI's will hold the pressure better, but may require a heavier firing pin spring to achieve consistent burn.

5. Tula or Wolf - have not used due to having 30,000 Federal primers in stock.

Your results or methods may vary.
__________________
OldmanFCSA = "Oldman" at www.fcsa.org
FCSA Member, SCSA Member, NRA Member, & AMA Member
"Oldage & Treachery will overcome Youth & Skill"
oldmanFCSA is offline  
Old December 22, 2012, 10:50 AM   #41
jwrowland77
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 23, 2012
Location: Conway, Arkansas
Posts: 982
I had thought about using different primers other than CCI but I just like CCI.
jwrowland77 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:46 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.11221 seconds with 7 queries