Buying a pistol as a gift - Page 2

AH.74 · December 8, 2012, 11:54 AM

Quote:

The relationship does matter. There's a big difference between buying a gun for your neighbor and buying one for immediate family. Buying a gun for your Wife is in no way a straw purchase.

I agree, and so do several of the FFL's I've dealt with over the years.

JayCee · December 8, 2012, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Ettin

Well, if you've got a plan to fix this, why not share it with the rest of us?

Bad laws get changed when enough people speak out against them. The nation has finally realized that the drug prohibition laws are doing more harm than good, and it’s only a matter of time before those laws crumble. Any law that makes a person a felon based solely on geographical location is a bad law, and if enough people spoke out against such laws, they would get changed. My elected representatives continuously hear from me, and I’d venture to say that if everyone on this forum wrote their elected officials and/or a citizens’ lobbying group like the NRA and voiced their concerns, we’d make a good start at getting some of these unfair laws off the books. One never knows…

DaleA · December 8, 2012, 03:19 PM

Jaycee - You should start this as a new topic but I don't know if it is 'gun related' enough for TFL.

BTW I agree with you, a lot!

**hogdogs** · December 8, 2012, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Gift- You buy a gun and give it as a gift to another resident of your state. Gift means you use your $$$$ and have no expectation of being reimbursed.
Example1: you purchase a gun, give it to a neighbor for his birthday. He says thank you, have some cake.
Example2: Parents buy an AR lower for their 18 yr old son as a Christmas gift. Not illegal under federal law and not a straw sale.

I think there is an "example 3"... parents buy an AR for their 14 year old son who is an honors student and already already has his required community service project decided for his Eagle Scout requirement and hunts with his dad every trip as he has since just a little tike...

Brent

BullseyePrecision · December 8, 2012, 04:08 PM

Just put it in your name and give it to her

dogtown tom · December 9, 2012, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Edward429451 The relationship does matter. There's a big difference between buying a gun for your neighbor and buying one for immediate family. Buying a gun for your Wife is in no way a straw purchase.

Please provide a citation from Federal law that exempts family members.

I'll save you the time....it doesn't exist.

You can GIFT a firearm to any resident of your state.

You cannot purchase a firearm on behalf of ANYONE else. The law is clear.

Edward429451 · December 9, 2012, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Please provide a citation from Federal law that exempts family members.

I'll save you the time....it doesn't exist.

You're darn right it doesn't exist, because they do not write laws to tell you what you can do, only what you can't do, lol. I'll take my FFL's opinion over your, thank you. Play it safe if you like and apply to the Government to be able to buy your Wife a present. Myself, I'll live a normal life within my rights. If you couldn't buy family members a gun for a present then I'd have been in jail long ago because we've had somewhat of a family tradition of buying guns for each other. WADR, you're being overly paranoid, but by all means, do what you want.

bonefamily · December 9, 2012, 03:25 AM

The pistol is bought, picked up under my name, and now awaits wrapping paper and the surprise Santa visit on Christmas Eve

dogtown tom · December 9, 2012, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Edward429451

Quote:

Quote:
Please provide a citation from Federal law that exempts family members.
I'll save you the time....it doesn't exist.

You're darn right it doesn't exist, because they do not write laws to tell you what you can do, only what you can't do,

So.....why did you claim that the "relationship does matter"?

ATF regs/Federal law say only the actual buyer/transfereee may complete a 4473. There is NOT an exemption for family members.

Quote:

I'll take my FFL's opinion over your, thank you. Play it safe if you like and apply to the Government to be able to buy your Wife a present.

You didn't read anything above before you posted did you?

If you had you would have read that a GIFT is completely legal from ANYONE....and always has been. Federal law/ATF regs prohibit acquiring a firearm on behalf of another person from a licensed dealer.......and specifically mentions a gift as being exempt.

Quote:

Myself, I'll live a normal life within my rights. If you couldn't buy family members a gun for a present then I'd have been in jail long ago because we've had somewhat of a family tradition of buying guns for each other. WADR, you're being overly paranoid, but by all means, do what you want.

Federal gun laws apply no matter who the recepient is, family or not. If you give a firearm as a gift to your son who resides in the same state....legal. If you give a firearm as a gift to your son who resides in another state....illegal, and you both violated Federal law.

**Frank Ettin** · December 9, 2012, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dogtown tom

...If you give a firearm as a gift to your son who resides in the same state....legal. If you give a firearm as a gift to your son who resides in another state....illegal, and you both violated Federal law...

Not exactly. You may give a gift of a firearm to a resident of another State, whether or not a family member, BUT it must be transferred to the recipient through an FFL with usual formalities (4473, etc.), just as any other interstate transfer.

Edward429451 · December 9, 2012, 08:38 PM

Perhaps I misunderstood you just a bit Tom, but you seemed to be putting the Government above Family, and I find that laughable. I respect the laws and the state line thing, but for immediate family residing with you or even in the same state it is largely none of anyones business what weapons are transferred around.

It has even happened before that I bought a gun and didn't like it so much once I had it for a week or so and so gave it to a family member who did like it. Relationship does matter in that within immediate family, (assuming no felonies etc.) it is not a straw purchase and not their business. Non family members transfers could be brought into question much more easily than immediate family, so in that light relationship does matter.

**hogdogs** · December 9, 2012, 08:51 PM

NOPE!!! Edward, the law is clearly written... You can gift a firearm to family or non family equally... Not easier to family or free pass on state lines etc...

A gift is a gift...

Brent

**Tom Servo** · December 9, 2012, 08:53 PM

Quote:

It has even happened before that I bought a gun and didn't like it so much once I had it for a week or so and so gave it to a family member who did like it. Relationship does matter in that within immediate family, (assuming no felonies etc.) it is not a straw purchase and not their business. Non family members transfers could be brought into question much more easily than immediate family, so in that light relationship does matter.

You're actually discussing two separate issues here.

Even if you'd given the gun to a person who wasn't a family member, it would have been perfectly legal. You'd get in hot water if you gave it to someone you knew to be disqualified from owning a gun, but that's another matter.

The situation you describe isn't a straw purchase because you didn't buy it on behalf of someone else.

**Frank Ettin** · December 9, 2012, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward429451

...but you seemed to be putting the Government above Family, and I find that laughable. I respect the laws and the state line thing, but for immediate family residing with you or even in the same state it is largely none of anyones business what weapons are transferred around...

Maybe sometimes, and maybe sometimes not.

The point is to know and understand the law. If you do, there will nearly always be a legal way to do whatever you want to do (except somethings like giving a machine gun to a convicted felon who's a drug addict).

dogtown tom · December 9, 2012, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Edward429451 Perhaps I misunderstood you just a bit Tom, but you seemed to be putting the Government above Family, and I find that laughable

.
Do you find violating Federal law laughable? Good luck with that.

Quote:

I respect the laws and the state line thing...

Obviously not, since you ignore the law.

Quote:

Relationship does matter in that within immediate family, (assuming no felonies etc.) it is not a straw purchase and not their business. Non family members transfers could be brought into question much more easily than immediate family, so in that light relationship does matter

Complete nonsense.

Edward429451 · December 9, 2012, 10:59 PM

Uh, ok.

**Frank Ettin** · December 10, 2012, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward429451

...Myself, I'll live a normal life within my rights. If you couldn't buy family members a gun for a present then I'd have been in jail long ago because we've had somewhat of a family tradition of buying guns for each other. WADR, you're being overly paranoid, but by all means, do what you want....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward429451

...Relationship does matter in that within immediate family, (assuming no felonies etc.) it is not a straw purchase and not their business. Non family members transfers could be brought into question much more easily than immediate family, so in that light relationship does matter...

Let's be real clear; that is all convoluted, disorganized gibberish.

The bottom line --

In general it is legal to give someone a gun as a gift if the recipient is legally qualified to possess the gun. The transfer needs to satisfy state law. And if the transferor and transferee are residents of different States, the transfer must also satisfy federal law regarding interstate transfers.
In general the procedures required for giving a gun as a gift are the same whether or not the transferor and transferee are family. There may be some exceptions under state law. For example, in California there are streamlined procedures when the transferor and transferee are (1) California residents; and (2) immediate family (specifically parent/grandparent to or from child/grandchild). But there are no exceptions under federal law for interstate transfers among family members.
Straw purchases are another matter entirely. Straw purchases have been discussed here, here, here, here, here and here.

Edward429451 · December 10, 2012, 10:14 AM

Thank you Frank, you make good points and don't just speak provocatively as Tom was. I understand your points and that they are very probably true. I have given guns to friends but generally do not and keep to immediate family because I know that the laws are written in a confusing manner designed to trip people up and perhaps disqualify more people from ownership entirely, so as time goes on I feel it is a safer proposition to keep to family.

I certainly do respect the laws and in fact fear the potential loop holes of them so as not to accidently transgress them.

HisDudeness · December 12, 2012, 03:12 AM

bonefamily - I'm not sure if anyone explained this already but the paperwork you fill out when buying a gun is not a gun "registration" but the federal form required to be filled out along with the NICS check. This is kept with the FFL for the requisite amount of time and from what I've read this information is not stored with the feds.

Also, you mentioned bringing her along and having it "put in her name" when it arrives. The transferring FFL will have to match the information used online when purchasing the firearm to what you put on the 4473 form. These parties have to be one in the same.

bonefamily · December 12, 2012, 03:15 AM

^^ Thanks, HisDudeness!

AH.74 · December 12, 2012, 10:01 AM

Quote:

The transferring FFL will have to match the information used online when purchasing the firearm to what you put on the 4473 form. These parties have to be one in the same.

What if there is none? Do they refuse the transfer?

HisDudeness · December 12, 2012, 04:46 PM

Quote:

What if there is none? Do they refuse the transfer?

What if there is no information sent with the firearm to the receiving FFL? This information is always collected when you purchase a firearm online.

AH.74 · December 12, 2012, 07:13 PM

Quote:

What if there is no information sent with the firearm to the receiving FFL? This information is always collected when you purchase a firearm online.

What if you purchase something privately through a forum such as this one, where there is no bill of sale?

HisDudeness · December 12, 2012, 10:50 PM

AH.74, I actually started the other thread discussing the usage of a BOS for a private sales.

The original poster from what I understand bought his gun from a retail store out of state who shipped it to a receiving FFL. It seems like you are asking about an online sale from another state between private parties. Those will take place FFL to FFL from what I gather. You both have to be a resident of the same state to bypass the FFL requirement. I've honestly never conducted this sort of transaction but others may be able to chime in. Might be a good topic for another thread. We are now off-topic and entering hijack mode...

radom · December 14, 2012, 06:53 PM

Just to add to the confusion in the example 4 the gun is community property so negates the straw purchase idea. Bought a gun myself a while back and as my hand was in a cast my wife did the paperwork. Probably a gray area but with state property laws it would be impossable to get a conviction.

December 9, 2012, 08:38 PM	#36
Edward429451 Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,457	Perhaps I misunderstood you just a bit Tom, but you seemed to be putting the Government above Family, and I find that laughable. I respect the laws and the state line thing, but for immediate family residing with you or even in the same state it is largely none of anyones business what weapons are transferred around. It has even happened before that I bought a gun and didn't like it so much once I had it for a week or so and so gave it to a family member who did like it. Relationship does matter in that within immediate family, (assuming no felonies etc.) it is not a straw purchase and not their business. Non family members transfers could be brought into question much more easily than immediate family, so in that light relationship does matter. __________________ "Always place your clothes and weapons where you can find them in the dark" Lazarus Long "Understand that the enemy is not the enemy in his own eyes ;this may offer you an opportunity to make him your friend. If not, you can kill him without hate, and quickly." Lazarus Long

December 9, 2012, 08:51 PM	#37
hogdogs Staff Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 10,684	NOPE!!! Edward, the law is clearly written... You can gift a firearm to family or non family equally... Not easier to family or free pass on state lines etc... A gift is a gift... Brent __________________ Finally have designs going up in the Hogdogs Outdoor Apparel online store. http://www.cafepress.com/hogdogsoutdoorapparel Thanks for lookin'...

December 9, 2012, 10:59 PM	#41
Edward429451 Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,457	Uh, ok. __________________ "Always place your clothes and weapons where you can find them in the dark" Lazarus Long "Understand that the enemy is not the enemy in his own eyes ;this may offer you an opportunity to make him your friend. If not, you can kill him without hate, and quickly." Lazarus Long

December 10, 2012, 10:14 AM	#43
Edward429451 Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,457	Thank you Frank, you make good points and don't just speak provocatively as Tom was. I understand your points and that they are very probably true. I have given guns to friends but generally do not and keep to immediate family because I know that the laws are written in a confusing manner designed to trip people up and perhaps disqualify more people from ownership entirely, so as time goes on I feel it is a safer proposition to keep to family. I certainly do respect the laws and in fact fear the potential loop holes of them so as not to accidently transgress them. __________________ "Always place your clothes and weapons where you can find them in the dark" Lazarus Long "Understand that the enemy is not the enemy in his own eyes ;this may offer you an opportunity to make him your friend. If not, you can kill him without hate, and quickly." Lazarus Long

December 8, 2012, 03:19 PM	#28
DaleA Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2002 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 873	Jaycee - You should start this as a new topic but I don't know if it is 'gun related' enough for TFL. BTW I agree with you, a lot!

December 8, 2012, 04:08 PM	#30
BullseyePrecision Member Join Date: October 30, 2012 Posts: 25	Just put it in your name and give it to her

December 9, 2012, 03:25 AM	#33
bonefamily Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2012 Location: central Ohio Posts: 255	The pistol is bought, picked up under my name, and now awaits wrapping paper and the surprise Santa visit on Christmas Eve

December 12, 2012, 03:12 AM	#44
HisDudeness Member Join Date: March 27, 2012 Posts: 64	bonefamily - I'm not sure if anyone explained this already but the paperwork you fill out when buying a gun is not a gun "registration" but the federal form required to be filled out along with the NICS check. This is kept with the FFL for the requisite amount of time and from what I've read this information is not stored with the feds. Also, you mentioned bringing her along and having it "put in her name" when it arrives. The transferring FFL will have to match the information used online when purchasing the firearm to what you put on the 4473 form. These parties have to be one in the same.

December 12, 2012, 03:15 AM	#45
bonefamily Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2012 Location: central Ohio Posts: 255	^^ Thanks, HisDudeness!

December 12, 2012, 10:50 PM	#49
HisDudeness Member Join Date: March 27, 2012 Posts: 64	AH.74, I actually started the other thread discussing the usage of a BOS for a private sales. The original poster from what I understand bought his gun from a retail store out of state who shipped it to a receiving FFL. It seems like you are asking about an online sale from another state between private parties. Those will take place FFL to FFL from what I gather. You both have to be a resident of the same state to bypass the FFL requirement. I've honestly never conducted this sort of transaction but others may be able to chime in. Might be a good topic for another thread. We are now off-topic and entering hijack mode...

December 14, 2012, 06:53 PM	#50
radom Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2000 Posts: 1,270	Just to add to the confusion in the example 4 the gun is community property so negates the straw purchase idea. Bought a gun myself a while back and as my hand was in a cast my wife did the paperwork. Probably a gray area but with state property laws it would be impossable to get a conviction.