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Old November 20, 2012, 10:40 AM   #1
nate45
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Senate bill rewrite lets feds read your e-mail without warrants

If this isn't a Civil Rights issue, I don't know what is.

I'm not against Law Enforcement reading the e-mails of criminal suspects, if they have a warrant. The whole idea that they could go on a fishing expedition and surreptitiously read e-mails without judicial over sight is abhorrent. This is still the USA, or what is left of it. No excuse of terrorism, etc is good enough. We, don't need a secret police in the USA. It may be too late though. Things like the Patriot Act and the recent NDAA amendments may have already put us across the threshold.

A Senate proposal touted as protecting Americans' e-mail privacy has been quietly rewritten, giving government agencies more surveillance power than they possess under current law.

Senate bill rewrite lets feds read your e-mail without warrants

Its like the newspeak from 1984, the bill thats supposed to protect our rights, actually takes them away.
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Old November 20, 2012, 11:42 AM   #2
Tom Servo
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Its like the newspeak from 1984, the bill thats supposed to protect our rights, actually takes them away.
Oceania has always been at war with Europa. The bill's been around since last year, and it was originally supposed to be an enhancement of private citizens' privacy. Upon criticism from 22 law-enforcement agencies, Leahy relented and turned it into something less pleasant.

It goes into committee this week. If your senator's on that committee (as mine is), get on the phone about it early. If not, call anyway and get the issue out there.
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Old November 20, 2012, 11:54 AM   #3
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With all the critical things happening these days the senate makes time to infringe on individual privacy? Goes out of their way to work this up? We are paying those folks way too much if they feel so insulated from us they can not only waste time, but spend it working against us. Can we have a 5 year vacation from Congress?

Folks keep saying how there is no way Congress will support any gun laws, ut actions like this email bill sure make me wonder what they won't stop at.
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Old November 20, 2012, 12:50 PM   #4
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How about a nice Anti-Congress Privacy bill?

Something like, No Closed Doors Negotiations Unless National Security Requires Secrecy.

End all the kick-backs, threats, bribes, pawn games and strawman problems.
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Old November 20, 2012, 01:01 PM   #5
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The Feds listen to phone calls and emails are scanned by Google et al - street cameras, drones, satellites, airport scanners,groping, RFID chips, Google Earth, check points, there really is very little privacy. New technology allows visualization of the interior of a home. I guess if you play be the rules then there is not much to worry about. We are all reality T.V now.
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Old November 20, 2012, 02:34 PM   #6
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Should this become law, I predict a lawsuit to overturn in as a violation of the 4th Amendment to follow very, very quickly.
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Old November 20, 2012, 10:39 PM   #7
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Oceania has always been at war with Europa.
+10,000 Tom!

I think privacy in this post 9/11 world is just an illusion. If you send an e mail, talk about it on the phone or in any other way electronically communicate something you should just assume the government is monitoring it live or could monitor it at will.

Look at firearms laws as a perfect example; you already have states and localities that thumb their noses at FOPA on a regular basis, why should the right to privacy be any different?

Passing federal laws is great but unless either through the courts or through public pressure you get serious oversight of the government under such laws they are all just "feel good" measures akin to something like an AWB.

It just allows certain politicians to say in their next re-election ad "XXXXX stood up against big government for your right to electronic privacy".
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Old November 20, 2012, 10:49 PM   #8
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Wonder if anybody will stand up to this...

Ironically, it was one of our WWII vintage directors of intelligence who's attributed with the saying,

"We will only be the Land of the Free, as long as we remain the Home of the Brave."
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Old November 20, 2012, 11:39 PM   #9
Don H
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After public criticism of proposal that lets government agencies warrantlessly access Americans' e-mail, Sen. Patrick Leahy says he will "not support" such an idea at next week's vote.
More here: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57...eillance-bill/
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Old November 20, 2012, 11:49 PM   #10
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While I like Brian's Anti-Congressional Privacy bill, might I suggest the 29th amendment (several have claimed to be the 28):

It's called the "You lie you die" amendment: Any elected or appointed federal official who lies to the public will be publically executed, without the chance for pardon or parole. Further, every such official is required to answer 1 hour of randomly selected questions from the public monthly.

The slugs will leave the earnest/ boy scouts will stay.
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Old November 21, 2012, 01:38 PM   #11
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Any elected or appointed federal official who lies to the public will be publically executed, without the chance for pardon or parole.
I'm a bit dismayed that I have to point this out, but there are some real due process concerns with that idea.
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Old November 21, 2012, 01:41 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by TXAZ
Any elected or appointed federal official who lies to the public will be publically executed.
So you want all of them gone.
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Old November 21, 2012, 09:21 PM   #13
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Tom
Of course there is due process, jury trial and appeal as in any federal case.

After working for a powerful House Committee Chairman, I'm synical how legislation is really horse traded / made and then explained to the populous (usually addressed by less flattering names in private). You realize most of the country is made up of lemmings, or single issue ignoramuses. If its a misdemeanor to lie to an officer, felony to a grandjury, shouldnt it e a capital crime ti lie to the whole country? The idea follows the EPA's unwritten policy of public crucifixion as an example for large violators. Good for the goose, good for the gander.

Nate
My last line indicated the good guys will stay, the sleazy will leave on their own.
and there are some excellent legislators and executive branch. Most have only been there a limited number of years and are focused on addressing specific problems, not next elections fund raising.

But this amendment will never happen: we can't even pass a balanced budget amendment or set a reasonable debt limit, tackle the giga issue of Medicare/ Medicaid or Social Security. The citizenry can't generally articulate who their representatives are.

Happy Thanksgiving.
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Old November 22, 2012, 09:22 AM   #14
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This bill is generating a lot of heat already. I predict it will not become law.
However, the FBI already has 'Carnivore', a computer that does just this. And, these days I believe it is naive to think our electronic communications are already not being monitored.
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Old November 22, 2012, 09:36 AM   #15
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"And, these days I believe it is naive to think our electronic communications are already not being monitored."
I believe you are correct like NSA and phone calls - key words like stuff you can't say at the airport.
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Old November 22, 2012, 11:27 AM   #16
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The one place they're aren't liable for lying is on the House/Senate floor. That's why Harry Reid made the "Romney doesn't pay taxes and I have proof" statement on the floor. Romney would not be able to file suit against him.
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Old November 22, 2012, 12:17 PM   #17
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I believe you are correct like NSA and phone calls - key words like stuff you can't say at the airport.
In the 1990's, there was a great deal of hubbub about Carnivore and the like. Folks used to have signatures for their email peppered with words like hijack, Bin Laden, terrorist, and the like. The black helicopters never came.

Does the capacity to monitor an individual's communications exist? Yes. Does the capacity to monitor everything, all the time exist? No. It has to be directed. That's why I'm not worried, because...

Wait a minute. There's some guys knocking on my door...
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Old November 22, 2012, 12:49 PM   #18
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"Folks used to have signatures for their email peppered with words like hijack, Bin Laden, terrorist, and the like. The black helicopters never came."

Actually, a number of terrorist plots have been undone by phone calls and emails. Once you are on the radar "They" will look and if necessary dig deeper. If you have nothing to hide then it will not be a problem. If you think nothing will ever happen start sending emails using buzz words that will get you interrogated at the airport and at some point a helicopter may not arrive but you may get a knock at the door or surveilled. Even if you substitute words like "present" for bad words the programming will tag the communications. Terrorists use code words and figures of speech and they still hit the radar. The articles and shows I have seen demonstrate that the NSA et al have an incredible capacity to ferret through an enormous amount of communication via super computers and programming. According to DHS, veterans and white males who cling to guns and religion are prime suspects for terrorist activity. That would cover me and a few others here I suspect.
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Old November 23, 2012, 06:45 PM   #19
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I have nothing to hide but I still do not like the idea of the government watching everything I do, listening to everything I say, or reading everything I type or write.
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Old November 23, 2012, 07:58 PM   #20
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Actually, a number of terrorist plots have been undone by phone calls and emails.
I'm pretty sure the plots were undone by many things before the phonecalls and Emails came up.
I doubt DHS spots some suspicious looking email and think "Oh snap, he's a terrorist. We have to keep an eye on him."
These guys were on the government's radar a while ago and the Emails were just more evidence to find out the details.

If some guy just woke up one morning and out of the blue decided "WOW it would be ridiculously easy to walk into the middle of the Times Square subway station with a bomb in my backpack and set it off" And he had no prior connections with terrorist cells, there would be nothing the gov't could do to know about it until after the bang.

The gov't can't monitor every piece of communication sent out by every person in the country. They catch terrorists because they already have a list of suspected terrorists and know whose communications to keep an eye on.
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Old December 5, 2012, 10:03 AM   #21
jmortimer
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That's What I'm Talking About

'Everyone in US under virtual surveillance' - NSA whistleblower
Article on RT.com Published: 04 December, 2012, 18:01

Not only all emails but all phone calls as well

http://rt.com/usa/news/surveillance-...-citizens-178/
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Old December 7, 2012, 07:45 PM   #22
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The gov't can't monitor every piece of communication sent out by every person in the country.
You would be wrong concerning electronic communications... See the Patriot Act.... Not some tin hat dream, but a reality.... Even fiber optics can be tapped. What I would suggest is that some really smart people have got the filtering down to a science so 99.9999% of the time they arent knocking on our doors, still doesn't make it right....
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Old December 7, 2012, 08:46 PM   #23
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"I have nothing to hide" has been said a couple of times in this thread. My concern is not that I have anything to hide, it is that I don't trust the other side, it's that simple.
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Old December 7, 2012, 09:13 PM   #24
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Todays legal, could also become tomorrows illegal in a hurry too. Tomorrows illegal, might be farther than currently law abiding citizens might want to go. Not predicting anything, not particularly worried at this date. Just making an observation.
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Old December 8, 2012, 01:07 AM   #25
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"I have nothing to hide" is irrelevant to the conception of privacy rights.
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