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Old December 6, 2012, 03:03 AM   #1
Irish B
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Good ol Walmart

I wasnt sure where to put this as it has to do with AR's, Shotguns, and stupidity. Our walmart here sells black guns as well as shottys and rifles. I was just poking around in the gun accessories aisle and I overheard a conversation between the gun salesman and a man with his young son. After a while I caught on to what was going on. The salesman was trying to sell the man a 5.56 AR for home defense. The man asked the difference between the .22 LR AR and the .223 AR. The salesman said "There's not really a big difference. The caliber is about the same size. Either will be a perfect family gun for home defense." So I had to be a buttinski and interrupt. I said first of all there is a massive difference between a 5.56 NATO round and a .22 LR round. I explained the differences then I asked to be sure if he's ever had a gun. He said no but he needed one for home defense. Long story short I pointed him towards a classic $250 Remy 870 12 gauge over the $900 5.56 AR. The Walmart salesman seemed to be unphased by my interruption and change of direction. This leaves me with the question: Do you need any training or gun knowledge whatsoever to work the gun counter at walmart?
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Old December 6, 2012, 03:59 AM   #2
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Of course not especially at WalMart ! This is not a new problem , it's been a round a long time !! The store and salesman [?] are much to blame and even the customer shares some of it . There are many sources to get reliable info so you can be an informed customer. But then nobody is forced to use their brains ,
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Old December 6, 2012, 04:53 AM   #3
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I had a similar experience, a man that I would say was new to firearm ownership was looking for "45 ACP" ammunition, apparently he or the Walmart employee did not know that the 45 auto ammunition is the same thing.

I think many people who have not owned a gun before are buying guns.
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Old December 6, 2012, 06:10 AM   #4
DaleA
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I think, like many places - not just Walmart, your day goes faster if you just don't care.

This has been discussed a *lot* many times before, is the employee's primary concern the company, that is, to sell as much stuff as they can, or is it to the customer, to help the customer get the RIGHT stuff.

If you answer 'the right stuff' where do the employee's get the knowledge about guns, cameras, automotive, electronics etc. etc. to do their jobs? Is management suppose to educate their employees in all these different areas? That's going to take time and time really is money when you're paying people by the hour.
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Old December 6, 2012, 06:23 AM   #5
Hal
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Quote:
Long story short I pointed him towards a classic $250 Remy 870 12 gauge over the $900 5.56 AR.
New gun owner w/a young kid and presumably a wife - again - presumably none have any experience with firearms.
The guy is looking for a "family gun" - again, presuably something the entire family can enjoy.


& you steer him to a 12 ga shotgun?

Sorry - I side with the "no nothing" from WalMart on this one big time.

IMNSHO, either of the AR's would have been a much wiser choice for an introductory firearm.
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Old December 6, 2012, 06:48 AM   #6
Irish B
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I think you forgot the part where I said it's for home defense. YOU and I may use an AR for home defense but an inexperienced shooter will have a much more likely chance with a 12 gauge with 00 buck shooting at center mass.
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Old December 6, 2012, 07:46 AM   #7
Hal
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Nope - I read that part.
I'm still w/the WalMart "no nothing".

A 12 ga is fine for someone that's become comfortable with recoil.
Not a raw beginner.
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Old December 6, 2012, 09:56 AM   #8
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A 12 ga is fine for someone that's become comfortable with recoil.
Not a raw beginner.
Maybe it's just me, but I would assume that someone using a weapon for home defense would at the very least practice with it a bit to get a feel for it. Yes, I know what they say about assuming

The first gun I ever shot larger than an air rifle was a 12 gauge 870 - recoil really wasn't that bad, even on my (at the time) 15-year-old 140 pound frame. Sure, it kicked, but it didn't take me too long to figure out to lean into it and absorb it.

At the WallyWorld in my town, there is 1 employee who works the gun counter that even owns a gun. It is not the place I go to for advice.
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Old December 6, 2012, 10:21 AM   #9
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I went to Wal Mart looking for a pretty common Marlin .22lr Clip and the guy seriously asked me, and pay attention to the first one, if it was a single shot, semi, or bolt. I understand they are not gun smiths by any means, but a little common sense goes a long ways.
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Old December 6, 2012, 10:24 AM   #10
Hal
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Maybe it's just me, but I would assume that someone using a weapon for home defense would at the very least practice with it a bit to get a feel for it. Yes, I know what they say about assuming
The sheer number of guns that go home and get stuck unfired in a closet or drawer pretty much say a lot...

It's impossible for anyone that posts on a forum such as this to convey an objective opinion on some topics.

Why?

Because we are all "enthusiasts"..

We all chose to continue on beyond the initial exposure - pleasant or unpleasnt.
While you can't "broad brush" people, people do have a tendancy to not continue on doing something they don't enjoy.
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Old December 6, 2012, 10:31 AM   #11
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The sheer number of guns that go home and get stuck unfired in a closet or drawer pretty much say a lot...
True enough, and all we, as enthusiasts, can do is to provide our insight on the tools. It's up to the user to determine what to do with that tool.
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Old December 6, 2012, 11:24 AM   #12
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The only training working at the gun counter in Walmart's sporting goods department that is required is the ability to run a register. I spent a couple years working there back before I actually got into guns. At that time everyone in the department, including myself sadly, thought that .357 Sig meant .357 Signature. I'm not kidding. That is what I was told it was called by the department manager.
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Old December 6, 2012, 11:54 AM   #13
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let me ask if there is a differance between getting poor information from a walmart associate who knows nothing and is trying to give the best answer he can ............or someone in your local gun store who gives his slanted opinions about products or purposly steers you towards products he likes and suits his needs and not yours, or worse products they are trying to get rid of or make more profits on? either way it is the customers job to take what they hear with a grain of salt, go home and do your own research and then make up your own mind.
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Old December 6, 2012, 02:29 PM   #14
Gaerek
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Quote:
A 12 ga is fine for someone that's become comfortable with recoil.
Not a raw beginner.
I would disagree with this. First, you can get low recoil loads which is all you need for HD. Most 2 3/4in bird (read: practice) loads don't have a whole lot of recoil. Second, there isn't much more of a simple gun than a pump action shotgun. It's easier to aim and control than a handgun, and can be used for HD as well as a woods defense gun (Mine was primarily a bear gun).

Granted, a little training can go a long way, and a handgun might have been a better way to go in the long run. But if this guy had no intention of seeking more than basic instruction, the shotgun will be fine for him. Though, I might have steered towards a 20ga if one had been available.
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Old December 6, 2012, 02:41 PM   #15
Brian Pfleuger
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A 12ga still has to hit important parts if it's going to stop someone.

The WalMart guy clearly didn't know what he was talking about but I think I'd rather have a raw beginner defend themselves with an AR than a 12ga.

A gun guy might not think "2 3/4" bird" has much recoil but most all "non-gun" people would vehemently disagree.

Does it have to be a $900 gun? No, but I'd rather it was an AR than a 12ga. I'd rather it was almost any long gun than a 12ga.
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Old December 6, 2012, 03:10 PM   #16
Hal
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I would disagree with this. First, you can get low recoil loads which is all you need for HD
The buyer is a raw newbie shopping for a gun at WalMart.
I hate to make assumptions,,,but,, that doesn't sound to me like someone that's put a lot of research into this.
You know and I know and people here know, that you can buy reduced recoil loads.
AFAIK, you can't pick them up off the shelf at WalMart.

Plus the OP mentioned something about 00 buck....
Again, the 00 buck I bought at WalMart was anything but reduced recoil.


FWIW - this might interest some.
I cross posted this at THR and stripped out the Walmart story.

I simply listed:
AR in .22lr
AR in .223
Remington 870 12 ga.

As the three choices.
What's interesting is that the AR in .223 seems to be the preferred gun, followed by the .22.
The 870?
Not too much support for it...
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Old December 6, 2012, 03:13 PM   #17
wolverine_173
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There is usually an older lady at my wal mart. I asked for some 22 ammo since all the ammo is locked up behind the counter and she asked me to point out which one was the 22 ammo.
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Old December 7, 2012, 12:07 AM   #18
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what exactly do you expect for a dollar or two over minimum wage?

If you don't know what you want don't go to walmart. Don't order off a website and expect the "shopping cart" to give advice and make corrections for you either.
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Old December 7, 2012, 05:36 AM   #19
StukaJU87
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My question is why do people think they need 00 buck for home defense? 6 or 4 shot will get the job done and is more practical inside a home. You have to ask your self "what if I miss my target?". Especially if you live in close proximity of neighbors. You don't want anything that will shoot through walls and accidentally kill someone in the house or apartment next door.

Shotguns and small caliber pistols make great home defense weapons if used correctly. 2 3/4 shells are more than enough for HD, you don't need a 3 or 3 1/2. Also .22 - .45 is all you need in a pistol, anything bigger and you're asking for trouble if your round hits someone next door. A round from 44 mag can pass through an exterior wall and enter a house next door, killing a neighbor. You must always be aware of your surroundings and prepared for the consequences. You must be a responsible gun owner.

There are 3 things to remeber when dealing with HD. 1. You aren't going to war and burglars don't wear body armor. 2. If a burglar breaks in while you're asleep, he already has the advantage, regardless of your weapon of choice. 3. Never wander through your house looking for the burglar.

His eyes are already accustomed to the dark. Just waking up, your eyes will take a few seconds to adjust. The burglar is ready, aware someone might be home. You have no idea where the burglar is, and if you turn a light on to see, that just tells he burglar where you are. Not to mention the light will blind you way more then burglar. You're both scared, adrenaline pumping, it's nothing like range practice. The odds of you being able to hit your target accurately are pretty slim. That's why people prefer shotguns for HD. All the practice in the world will never prepare you for a real life and death encounter, regardless of what you hear and see on tv.

Try reading the figures on how many bullets it takes our soldiers to kill just one enemy soldier. Our soldiers are better armed and better trained then any home owner will ever be and even they have a hard time hitting their targets.

Your best defense is to stay in your bedroom and call the police. If your bedroom is set up so that your bed is between the door and the opposite wall, that will be the safest place. You can use the bed as cover and as a gun rest while you wait for help. Plus it will allow you to focus your attention on the narrow doorway if you are forced to defend yourself. You'll be much safer using cover than if you start wandering blindly through a dark house.

Regardless of your weapon of choice, be safe and think before you act.

Last edited by StukaJU87; December 7, 2012 at 05:59 AM.
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Old December 7, 2012, 07:52 AM   #20
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You don't want anything that will shoot through walls and accidentally kill someone in the house or apartment next door.
Perhaps even a lowly .22lr can do damage beyond thru gyp bd or a window, as can a stream of #8 lead dust. But I hear ya StukaJu.
Quote:
1. You aren't going to war and burglars don't wear body armor.
I shall opine that in the event someone invades my house, war came to me, albeit a very small one. If what I read is true, some hooligans are now wearing such for some planned home invasions. Your typical day to day opportunistic teen age burglar, probably not. YMMV
Quote:
Try reading the figures on how many bullets it takes our soldiers to kill just one enemy soldier. Our soldiers are better armed and better trained then any home owner will ever be and even they have a hard time hitting their targets.
Hmmm. Maybe yes, maybe no. It may be some home owners are former military? Covering fire round counts might alter kill ratios in combat?

Soldiers are armed with what they are issued. You and I have choices. Same is true with training. But I digress from the OP's Box Store employee conversation.

Anything in way of firearm is better than nothing, and training, which we all preach is a good thing, is not something Joe Average gun buying for the first time citizen might even consider or be aware of, truth be told.

Life is like that.
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Old December 7, 2012, 09:24 AM   #21
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Sure am glad Wally World doesn't sell parachute's.

People would ask for jump instruction from a WW employee.
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Old December 7, 2012, 11:37 AM   #22
richard597
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I shop at Walmart for the prices not the knowledge of the salesperson in ANY department. If you want/need technical advise, why don't you shop at a store that hires only people properly trained to sell their product at a much higher price?
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Old December 7, 2012, 11:42 AM   #23
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An AR-15 for home defense? Really?

I'm sorry, maybe it's my country upbringing, or maybe that when I think of an AR-15 and houses, I think of assualting them, but an AR-15 for a novice gun owner for home defense?

Just doesn't click to me.
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Old December 7, 2012, 11:49 AM   #24
richard597
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I agree 100%. An AR would not be my first choice for home defense. Seems like a shotgun would be much better although I am no expert. Right now I just rely on my .45. Not too excited about firing that in the house without hearing protection, but it is better than being dead.
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Old December 7, 2012, 12:47 PM   #25
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I fail to see how a 20 gauge or 9mm wouldn't be easier for a beginner to become familiar with over an AR. Lots of people do get psyched out by just the look of the weapon ever if youre shooting a 22 conversion.
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