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Old October 15, 2012, 02:29 PM   #1
fun2shoot
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How Fast ?

How fast should your string of shots be in between trigger pulls to be combat effective into a bad guy trying to kill you . Take into account newer people not soldiers who would have much more adrenaline during a fatal shooting. Any ideas people ?
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Old October 15, 2012, 02:45 PM   #2
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As fast as you can shoot accurately so long as you stop shooting when you have stopped the villain.
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Old October 15, 2012, 02:46 PM   #3
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I don't think there is an explicit rate of fire. This would be a highly individual thing, and generally I would say as fast as you can while maintaining accuracy and precision. Granted in any scenario, I would say being as fast as Jerry Miculek is probably over kill, but so few people attain that level of proficiency I think the point is moot.
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Old October 15, 2012, 03:43 PM   #4
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Too some extent the weapon/ trigger is going to be a limit. Triggers with short reset are the easiest to master. The next limitation is probably recoil.
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Old October 15, 2012, 04:26 PM   #5
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If my self conscious has the sights aligned on the target...as fast as my sub conscious can press the trigger. It takes around 50,000 shots, for a new shooter, to teach his sub conscious to press the trigger. Five shots into one vital part of the body is "effective" --- but five shots into various vital parts on the trunk of the body, is much more "efficient".
Of course... the longer the distance to the target --- the longer it will take to make the shot. Occasionally.... I'm a spray and pray type of guy---at least on the gun range.

Last edited by Erno86; October 15, 2012 at 04:36 PM.
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Old October 15, 2012, 04:36 PM   #6
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JimPage said it all.
Shoot swiftly, shoot accurately, and shoot repeatedly, until the threat has ended. Then, and only then, stop shooting. Additional speed and accuracy will come with additional practice.
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Old October 15, 2012, 05:26 PM   #7
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Quote:
... As fast as you can shoot accurately so long as you stop shooting when you have stopped the villain. ...
This is the answer. +1 for use of the word "villain", lol.
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Old October 15, 2012, 05:34 PM   #8
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There's no accurate rapid fire skill level that we reach and say, "that's it, I'm there". Same for other skills.
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Old October 16, 2012, 01:30 PM   #9
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Quote:
fun2shoot

How Fast ?
How fast should your string of shots be in between trigger pulls to be combat effective into a bad guy trying to kill you . Take into account newer people not soldiers who would have much more adrenaline during a fatal shooting. Any ideas people ?
If you mean how much time between "controlled pairs", "double taps", or "hammers"; I would suggest trying to get to around 0.25 seconds.

I find that I can accurately deliver two aimed shots with a 0.35 seconds all day at 5 yards. When I'm "in practice" I can get it to 0.25. When I'm having a "good day" I can crowd 0.20 seconds.

If this is what you can do consistently in practice; it is likely that you will do what you practice if the time comes.

A shot timer can really bring the reality of how slow or fast you are.
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Old October 16, 2012, 04:13 PM   #10
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I've practiced (and still do) getting my gun out and on target, then added a side step staying on target. I really don't know how long it takes me to get of 2 shots. I work on the accuracy of the two shots, 1 between the nipples, 1 to the nose. So far after about 10 months I can draw, step, fire or draw, fire and hit where I aim with .40 and .38spc. Still needs a lotta work, you never get fast enough, so I don't time myself. I just want to hit what I aim at.
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Old October 16, 2012, 04:52 PM   #11
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When I first started bullseye shooting my coach kept telling me it isn't how fast I empty the gun that counts its how many of my rounds get on target. There is no prize for making your gun empty before the other guy does. That carried over to my rifle shooting big bore and small bore and then the other pistol games like PPC. I know lots of guys who can and do shoot faster then I do but not near as many who shoot better than I do. As the previous posters already iterated slow down and make sure you are hitting the target and just keep shooting that fast. Speed comes with practice, not from trying to force it.
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Old October 17, 2012, 05:08 AM   #12
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You can't miss fast enough to win.
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Old November 28, 2012, 09:53 PM   #13
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times/numbers

I saw the old thread warning on this, but thought some actual times might be appreciated.

Last IDPA club match we went to, we shot a mini-stage where on signal, the shooter drew and fired two rds at 3 yds, fast as possible, with object being two center hits.

I think the winner was at 1.08 maybe, with a single action 9mm. I shot it in 1.42 with a DA .45 Sig, and bamaboy with a G17 did it in 1.51.

Most everybody was near 1.5, not everybody shot it clean. I think one guyshot it in .83, but was not centered.
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Old November 29, 2012, 12:11 AM   #14
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I hope this isn't considered thread-jacking, but think a bit about what your actual goal is: To stay alive and unharmed.

In that context, shooting quickly and accurately is ONE part of the equation. It makes no sense to shoot someone 6 times in 3 seconds if that means you are soaking up ANY rounds in return. Even a single poor "peripheral" shot on his part, which strikes your femoral or brachial artery, is likely a death sentence. If he's out of the fight in 10 seconds, but you bleed to death over the next 90 ... that's not a "win".

My opinion is that you shoot as quickly and accurately as you can, while first moving or otherwise acting to avoid getting shot/stabbed/beaten to death in return.
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Old November 29, 2012, 12:54 AM   #15
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I can shoot a controlled pair with a split of about .38 seconds without warming up usually. After a little warming up it gets closer to .28 seconds.

A hammered pair that is on target out to about 15 yards I get about .16 second splits.
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Old November 29, 2012, 05:42 AM   #16
Glenn Dee
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I'm with Old Grump on this one...

Dont be in such a hurry to empty your gun... Each situation will be different. The challange will be to stay aware of your surroundings, and the effect the rounds you put out and the perps reaction.

I dont do double taps... I've always shot, look, shot. look.
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Old November 29, 2012, 07:39 AM   #17
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"How fast should your string of shots be in between trigger pulls to be combat effective into a bad guy trying to kill you. ?" [funtoshoot]

Depends. If an active shooter is farther out, ie 20 yards or more and you are behind hard cover, you have time, precious seconds. If the assailant is in your face, you do not (police tell me most of their business is conducted at 3 to 8 feet), then you have to shoot as quickly as you can pull the trigger.

"When I'm having a "good day" I can crowd 0.20 seconds." [Mello2u]

That should do.

Check your 6.
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Old December 3, 2012, 09:14 AM   #18
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if the bad guy is coming out of holster at 3-8 feet (interview distance) your pretty screwed at that point if he knows what he is doing. You reaction time to his action at that distance pretty much guarantees you lose.

In the real world at that distance the bad guy wins. If you dont believe me look at presidential assassination attempts history. The gun always gets out - squeaky lynette fromme and sarah jane moore werent successful not because of the USSS quick reaction times it was because they never shot guns.


Andrew jackson assailant pointed it at him and id was unsuccessful because the balls fell out of the gun, Garfield , Mckinnley, Lincoln all pistols all dead, Teddy roosevelt shot by a pistol. and John Hinkley shot Reagan while the USSS was all around him - Bottom Line at that distance - action trumps reaction

Thats why the head of state (HOS) details dont train to draw at that distance if your in the close proximity detail and your next to the bad guy - they go for the gun and trap it and use their IADs to sort it out from there


time between trigger pulls dont mean anything in the big picture - the time you should be training for is the time from the stimulus (ie. pro timer) to the time it takes to come from the holster and put rounds in the kill zone.

My course standard at 7 meters and into the kill zone from the holster for that first shot is under 1 second. My course standard for double tap (controlled pair) is under 1.5. most times hover nearer the one second mark for both shots.
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Old December 3, 2012, 09:56 AM   #19
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Seems like most people are using target shooting as examples. Shooting at targets and shooting at bad guys are two totally diffrent things. We used simunitions when I went through the police academy and it was so diffrent than stationary targets. With shootings everything happens so fast, its not about lining up sights and perfact trigger pull, its about shooting them before they shoot you, unless like stated above you have distance and cover.
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Old December 3, 2012, 11:18 AM   #20
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From holstered and snapped to three shots center mass in four seconds is my general training target, there are some variations.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus that ate your iPhone.
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Old December 3, 2012, 11:29 AM   #21
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Quote:
Seems like most people are using target shooting as examples. Shooting at targets and shooting at bad guys are two totally diffrent things.
PPC wasn't target shooting. A lot of trigger time on the range builds muscle memory that takes over when you are in a hurry and adrenaline is high. I don't even remember drawing my gun and barely remember shooting but when I had to it was done and done fast. Second time was because of a feral dog, I had broken my right arm the day before, I drew left handed and put the dog down as soon as I saw danger without thinking about it. Range time practicing at much slower speeds both left and right handed kicked in and I did what I had to do. Almost everybody shoots faster than me on the range but you can't deny end results. In other words I'd rather be good then first.
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Old December 3, 2012, 05:54 PM   #22
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Get a copy of http://www.amazon.com/Surgical-Speed.../dp/1581601433... various instructors are teaching one version or another of this.
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Old December 3, 2012, 06:22 PM   #23
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Training?

A well-trained younger person can sling more lead than us older guys. However, I have found that with a moderate degree of practice, the average shooter can manage one shot per half second. When you think about it, that's three shots in one second. A shot at the beginning and end of the second and one in the middle.

I once witnessed Tom Campbell of team Smith and Wesson, empty a nine millimeter pistol so quickly that with my back initially turned to him, I thought someone had fired a burst from a sub-machine gun. He's a world-class shooter but it takes enormous practice to maintain that rate of fire.
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Old December 4, 2012, 04:24 PM   #24
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Why is everyone in such a hurry to shoot their gun dry?
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Old December 4, 2012, 04:27 PM   #25
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I think people are more in a hurry to stop any possibility of return fire, and people have realized that one-shot stops don't happen all that often.
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