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Old November 29, 2012, 05:07 PM   #1
jakemonroe
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school shooter

I am lucky enough to go to one of the few colleges in the united states that allows concealed carry. My college is also about thirty miles from the movie theater where the recent mass murder took place. The fact the the shooter was wearing body has been on my mind. now I'm not saying i want to start carrying armor peircing ammo or being a "mall ninja" I'm just wondering if anyone takes this into account when selecting a carry weapon?
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Old November 29, 2012, 05:15 PM   #2
Nico Testosteros
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I didn't.
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Old November 29, 2012, 05:32 PM   #3
scsov509
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Quote:
I'm just wondering if anyone takes this into account when selecting a carry weapon?
Take it into consideration when you train and practice precision shot placement from time to time. Drills like the Mozambique are great for this as they train you for those instances in which shots to the body won't stop a threat and a more precise shot will be required.
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Old November 29, 2012, 05:40 PM   #4
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Agreed, this is about accuracy and tactics, not ammunition. I carry a full size pistol primarily because I shoot it better. If I were unfortunate enough to face a threat with body armor, I would absolutely go for a head shot.
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Old November 29, 2012, 06:12 PM   #5
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Body armor mostly stops right above the belt line. Take a pelvis shot. Very disabling and very fatal due to the large blood vessels and bones. Bigger target, doesn't bob and weave around like someone's head when they are moving. Also the downward angle of your shot is less likely to cause collateral damage if you miss.
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Old November 29, 2012, 06:32 PM   #6
Brian Pfleuger
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I'm not sure how exactly you'd take it into account in terms of cartridge selection. The only round I know of that reliably penetrates SOME body armor is the FN5.7 and then only with rounds that are a wee bit tough to get for us civvies. Nice gun, awesome round, a little big to conceal and very pricey.

The best way to take it into account is to practice the classic "Failure to Stop" drill.
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Old November 29, 2012, 06:35 PM   #7
scsov509
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Quote:
Body armor mostly stops right above the belt line. Take a pelvis shot. Very disabling and very fatal due to the large blood vessels and bones. Bigger target, doesn't bob and weave around like someone's head when they are moving. Also the downward angle of your shot is less likely to cause collateral damage if you miss.
+1, I couldn't agree more. The key is to practice precision shot placement so that you can relocate your shots to the pelvis or head when a body shot fails to stop a threat.
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Old November 29, 2012, 06:36 PM   #8
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Shot placement. Shot placement. Shot placement. Shot placement.

Also, remember as a civvie with a CCW, you are not Marshall Earp sent to clean up the town.

That being said, I've wondered about the legality, and perhaps some of the more attuned memebers of the board can weigh in on it, of delibrating aiming for the knees, legs, feet whatever if a bad guy was wearing body armor.
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Old November 29, 2012, 07:13 PM   #9
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If I were involved in a gun fight, once the decision to fight was made to fight I would not consider any legalities until the perp was stopped. Of course, I am not the type of guy who has been living to shoot someone. I will be happy if I die as I have lived my life for 76 years without drawing on anyone aside from wartime.
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Old November 29, 2012, 07:13 PM   #10
SRH78
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Quote:
That being said, I've wondered about the legality, and perhaps some of the more attuned memebers of the board can weigh in on it, of delibrating aiming for the knees, legs, feet whatever if a bad guy was wearing body armor.
Simple, you always, always, always shoot the stop the threat, period. Hitting flesh is a more effective means of stopping a threat than hitting kevlar.

Twobit, everything is situationally dependant but that is a great point.

I was thinking specifically of the movie theater. The way I imagine that scenario, the chl holder would possibly take concealment behind seats and the lower part of the threats body would likely be obscured by multiple rows of seats which could possibly have innocents behind them. At across the room distances, I feel pretty confident in my ability to hit a target the size of a man's head. It also helps that my ccw is a full size pistol. Yes, I do practice drawing from concealment in the same manner that I carry and firing rapidly. I believe it is important, not only for increasing my skill but knowing what I can and cannot do consistently. If I can't do something consistently at the range, I certainly don't expect to be able to do it in a life threatening situation.
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Old November 29, 2012, 07:35 PM   #11
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No, I don't take it into consideration ...at all....

Picking a defensive weapon, if you choose to carry, is about picking the gun you shoot the best....( and that means what fits your hands the best ) ...and what you like in terms of controls, grip angle, trigger, caliber, etc...so for me, its a 1911...( 5" gun, in steel )...and sometimes I'll carry that gun in 9mm and sometimes in .45 acp..... in 9mm it'll have 147gr Hydra Shok ammo in it /230 gr Hydra Shok ammo in it if its a .45 acp...and I rarely carry an extra mag ( its Defense / its not a gunfight at the OK Corral )...

Don't overthink all the scenarios ....besides something may happen / that you've never thought of. You have to think and react ...and adapt...
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Old November 29, 2012, 08:57 PM   #12
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I've watched afew videos about body armor being shot with different rounds, yes it will stop a 45acp / 10mm/44mag but that enegy is still transfured to the target which may break afew bones if shot in the chest, but for sure they are not going feel very good after a 44mag in that area.
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Old November 29, 2012, 09:43 PM   #13
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"The fact the the shooter was wearing body has been on my mind."
I had a very good instructor in ccw class who worked very hard to keep up to date on all the laws and media coverage as well. The media reported the kid as wearing full body armor before anyone had the chance to determine this for sure. By the time the report by the police came back the mistake had already been made. He was wearing a "tactical vest" not body armor. not one ounce from the information given to me. This does not mean one may not try that in the future, im almost certain some coward will. I believe t33 tokarev rounds and buffalo bore 180gr hardcast .357magnum can defeat most vests obtainable to civilians within reason.
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Old November 29, 2012, 10:25 PM   #14
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Quote:
I've watched afew videos about body armor being shot with different rounds, yes it will stop a 45acp / 10mm/44mag but that enegy is still transfured to the target which may break afew bones if shot in the chest, but for sure they are not going feel very good after a 44mag in that area.
*

On that note, there's only case I know of where an armed citizen was killed by a bad guy who wasn't stopped due to body armor. And the bad guy was hit in the vest with a 45 acp.
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Old November 29, 2012, 10:36 PM   #15
chris in va
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I won't carry a gun that can't be shot accurately at more than 10 yards. My minimum size is my Kahr K9.

Which reminds me, I need to suggest a body armor BG target for our matches. We have lots of hostages, but nothing where we shoot at a pelvis or legs. Hmm.
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Old November 29, 2012, 10:48 PM   #16
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Couple of thoughts:

Even if you get a 5.7 or a 7.62 Tokarev that can go through body armor, by the time they penetrate the armor they are only good for maybe 5 inches of ballistic gel penetration. So if the round penetrates the vest, but hits a rib or the sternum on the other side the round isn't going to stop the bad guy.

If the guy has body armor on, odds are the bad guy also has long guns and you are going to be severely outgunned; as in LCP vs. AR-15 or S&W 642 vs. shotgun?.....no thanks.

When you are are outgunned, distraction is your best hope. Since Aurora I've started carrying a powerful pocket flashlight the idea being I can use the flashlight to blind the BG and maybe get off a couple of good shots.
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Old November 30, 2012, 01:55 AM   #17
jakemonroe
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thanks guys I'm not 21 yet so i have plenty of time to train and contemplate caliber and weapon platform choices.

I always figured a 38 j frame would be ideal for consistent school carry but have recently began to doubt that choice due to the fact that i can't shoot it NEARLY as accurate as a 1911 or any large frame semi auto for that matter.If i ever had to use my weapon in a class room environment accuracy immediately takes first priority due to the large amount of panicked students that would be moving franticly. a school might actually be one of the best uses for some of the light for caliber high speed rounds in 9mm.

like this?
(http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cat...roducts_id=580)
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Old November 30, 2012, 04:06 PM   #18
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A big consideration for you ammunition selection should also be over penetration. You use armor piercing and the BG isn't plated you are still responsible for what the bullet hits before it stops. Also lack of deformation means small holes all the way through so you most likely will have to wait for a bleed out to stop the BG. As stated earlier, shot placement, shot placement, ect. Use a good SD round and keep hitting them till they stop.
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Old November 30, 2012, 07:47 PM   #19
SPEMack618
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A shot with quality self defense ammo, or hell, even FMJ to th pelvic region is a pretty darn good fight stopper.

Some "old hands" passed that down to us in the big sandbox as a way of stopping a bad guy clean, keeping him around to interogate, and minimizing potential for over penetration. Good deal all around.
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Old November 30, 2012, 09:07 PM   #20
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The first thing you have to remember Jake, is that regardless of how unfortunate and sad this particular event was . . . . if you were a law abiding citizen with a CCW, you would probably not be allowed to carry a concealed weapon into the mall or the theater. To the best of my knowledge, this is pretty much universal in each state.

Second, you have to consider the chaos of what occurred. Regardless of how good a shot you are (or think you are) or how much practice you have had or training, it happens so fast that you do not know how you will react. In that situation, just think of the number of innocent people that could have been injured or killed if some good intended person, carrying a weapon (whether it is leagal or not) decided to return fire.

I'm not being a damp rag on your question as it is a valid one. I think you also have to consider the possibilities of what could have occurred if someone decided to return fire. Had the LE been present, even they could have had problems with all of their training.

I was up in Tucson the day of the shootings. Several of us were on our way to a range to shoot. That pretty much made things quiet and sober in the entire city when the news got out. AZ has some very liberal gun laws and there are many who carry - myself included. As we ate a late lunch that day, we were discussing the facts as we knew them at the time and wondering why, with as many people who carry, someone hadn't taken the shooter out. Let's face it . . when these things happen, they happen fast . . . and I would imagine that even a well trained LE would have a delay until the situation "set in". That's not a criticism of any LE officer . . . it's just that it is not an immediate reaction response to what is happening. Most times when these things happen, the perp deliberately picks a crowded situation . . . and of course with that scenario, there is always a greater danger of an innocent bystander being inured or killed by a well intentioned person who thinks they are doing the right thing.

As you get further into shooting, as already mentioned, the key is to practice, practice and then practice more and get as much training as you can. Know your weapon, its capabilities . . . and know your own capabilities. It's not about the bullet, it's about placement.
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Old November 30, 2012, 10:20 PM   #21
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Quote:
Take a pelvis shot. Very disabling and very fatal due to the large blood vessels and bones. Bigger target, doesn't bob and weave around like someone's head when they are moving. Also the downward angle of your shot is less likely to cause collateral damage if you miss.
This comes up repeatedly. Most people haven't a clue as to where to attempt to shoot the pelvis for the pistol shot to be disabling. Even if they did know, most haven't a clue as to how to location such internal locations based on the landmarks provided by external clothing.

Hitting the 'pelvis' alone isn't sufficient, especially when the largest part of the pelvis, the ilia or iliac blades are not actually skeletally load-bearing and slower moving handgun rounds may chip, break off an edge, or punch a hole through them without actually causing a locomotor structural failure.

Check out the guy here, for example. http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...pelvis+shatter

With multiple shots to the pelvic region, the only one that did actual serious bone damage was .223 and it only shattered part of the iliac blade without disrupting the joint or collapsing the girdle.

The pelvic region is a primary alternative target area for a person in body armor, but don't count on hits to the pelvis are to be disabling or fatal.
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Old December 1, 2012, 12:00 AM   #22
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If I could tell he was wearing body armor the best choice, as hard as it may be, would be to lay in wait behind cover, when he got close, pop up and shoot up into his head. Hitting a small moving target, like a head, in the chaos of a crowded theater at any kind of range, would be very close to impossible, would certainly turn his attention towards you and likely get you killed.

If the original shot would be tough, think how hard follow up shots would be while dodging his now incoming rounds directed at you.

Another option would be to stay behind cover until his attention is away from you or he's reloading, whatever, and move. Close the gap and take him out. Risky. Need to pull on the big boy pants, but, if you are going to do something do something hard and follow through.

Both of those options also greatly minimize the threat to the innocents.

We do a two full day active shooter training every two years. Everything about taking on an active shooter sucks. Everything.
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Old December 1, 2012, 12:03 AM   #23
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That was an interesting read.. someone said something about FMJ as i was shooting some 230 gain 45acp today into a old dead cut oak but 100% strong and i mean thick as we found a peice that was maybe 6" thick on edge and it almost didn't stop it as the bullet was stucking out the backside. now the old AP 7.62x54r will go clear threw a live pine tree at the base thats around 2 to 3 foot thick very easy and keep getting it.
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Old December 1, 2012, 10:13 AM   #24
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Actually, the shooter was not wearing body armor. He was wearing a tactical vest. This is a vest with lots of pockets for magazines, but is not body armor. This was verified by the FBI and was misreported by the news media. I can't understand how this happened as the news media knows everything about firearms.

Any type of handgun cartridge could have been capable of taking this guy out. Unfortunately, the audience was filled with law abiding victims.
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Old December 1, 2012, 12:38 PM   #25
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bedbugbilly, i 100% agree with you. practices is the key to being ready in one of these situations. However, i am under no delusion that i can practice for every single type of dangerous situation that presents itself. Still i feel that the fact that i still have three years of college makes it prudent that i accept the possibility of a disgruntled student trying something crazy. i'll get my permit in a year and a half and until then i plan on making myself as proficient as possible with a handgun.
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