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Old December 5, 2012, 03:20 PM   #1
wolverine_173
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cz 75 compact all steel vs p 01 nato certified?

So im interested in the differences between the cz 75 compact all steel vs the p01 which is nato certified. I know the frame of the p 01 is alloy and that it has a light rail a loaded chamber indicator, decocker and a few parts like the slide stop are shaped a bit different. But, are there any internal changes that will make the nato certified p 01 last longer than the standard compact??
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Old December 5, 2012, 03:22 PM   #2
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I had heard the metallurgy of the P-01 was somewhat improved over past work, same as the Sp-01.

I do have a P-01. Great gun (DA pull is a bit rough but still serviceable). To be honest unless I think the alloy is heavy and durable enough, at least IMO.
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Old December 5, 2012, 03:59 PM   #3
Walt Sherrill
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I had heard the metallurgy of the P-01 was somewhat improved over past work, same as the Sp-01.
Improved metallurgy?

The only "metal" difference I know of for sure is that the P-01 has a forged alloy frame, rather than a cast one.

The SP-01 is still cast steel, like some of the other CZ full-size guns, but some of the grip-dimensions have changed, and it has a longer dust cover and beaver tail. There are a number of other changes with both of those guns, however, that many people like.

That the P-01 is forged alloy might be important to some folks, but the other alloy CZs don't have a reputation for frame failures...
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Old December 5, 2012, 04:04 PM   #4
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The P-01 was the first CZ model to benefit from updated manufacturing technology at CZ's Uhersky Brod factory.
I don't write the descriptions on their products, they do. If you want to call them up and ask them what they mean, be my guest.
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Old December 5, 2012, 04:17 PM   #5
Walt Sherrill
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They also claim to have made the "most widely used" firearm in the world... While it is widely used, the NUMBER of firearms in use may not be as great as they imply (or as most readers infer.)

If you find any details about this "updated manufacturing technology", let us know -- and I'll do the same.

The SP-01 isn't a bigger P-01. It was apparently modified to make it more competitive in the various gun games -- which is different than the P-01's focus.

---


With regard to the original question -- I doubt that there will be noticeable differences in service lives between the two guns. The Compact is heaver and steel, while the P-01 is alloy.

Both are quite durable, and except for the decocker on the P-01 (and safety on the Compact), almost identical internally. The P-01 has some newer features, some of which were mentioned. Both use the same mags, recoil spring, etc.

If you prefer cocked and locked, the P-01 is not an option; if you like alloy and decockers, the P-01 or the similar PCR are good choices. All three should OUTLAST the shooter.

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Old December 5, 2012, 04:22 PM   #6
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The SP-01 isn't a bigger P-01. It was apparently modified to make it more competitive in the various gun games -- which is different than the P-01's focus.
It can also be considered a duty pistol, it's not just a game gun. There are variations of it that are, the Shadow Target, but I don't consider the basic one to be.

Again from the site:
Quote:
The CZ 75 SP-01 is the first full size handgun (4.72” bbl) from CZ to feature the improved manufacturing technology and ergonomics of the NATO-approved CZ 75 Compact P-01 model.
If they're lying about the improved machining idk, all I am going off is what they advertise.
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Old December 5, 2012, 04:37 PM   #7
Walt Sherrill
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the P01s parts are interchangable or SPECD' I also read
That would be a nice feature, but parts for other CZs don't really seem to require much in the way of fitting.

This change for P-01s and SP-01s is probably a tighter adherence to specs (QC?), as noted, but I don't think it's been a big problem in the past.

If it's a change to quality control, it has to be a positive...

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Old December 5, 2012, 08:37 PM   #8
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I personally like the extended slide release, concave slide serrations, beveled magwell, shorter LOP and lighter weight on the P01.
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Old December 5, 2012, 10:23 PM   #9
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wolverine, one quick correction - the P-01 does NOT have a loaded chamber indicator. That would be the other alloy CCW pistol, the excellent CZ-75 PCR.

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Old December 6, 2012, 11:04 PM   #10
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I am a believer in the CZ75 design, it's "the best" in my opinion.

On the marketing side I think some things are lost in translation - "improved metallurgy" = we decided to use an aluminum alloy on this model.

"updated manufacturing technology" = we invested in a milling machine with a digital readout this year.

"most widely used" = everyone and their dog is making a CZ knock off.

The CZ75 design really is fantastic, but like so many other things there is marketing that really doesn't mean anything.
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Old December 7, 2012, 12:51 AM   #11
wolverine_173
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So the p 01 is nato certified. Does that mean the cz 75 compact all steel would be able to pass the same test? As far as i can tell the internals have not changed much.
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Old December 7, 2012, 08:45 AM   #12
Walt Sherrill
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So the p 01 is nato certified. Does that mean the cz 75 compact all steel would be able to pass the same test? As far as i can tell the internals have not changed much.
We don't know what "NATO certified" means. Many weapons are used by NATO forces, and only a few of them have that NATO designation. That doesn't mean that the SIGs, Glock, H&K weapons not wearing that designation are somehow inferior. We don't even know if there are, in fact, "NATO" tests that must be passed, or whether other standards having to do with production practices, are at play. Many of us have looked for answers to these questions, but have been unable to get any resolution.

I'm a big fan of CZs, especially the CZ pattern-guns made by CZ. That said, I spent a good bit of my adult life -- I'm now retired -- in marketing, some as an advertising copy writer. Given that, I know that words used to promote products don't always mean what they seem to clearly mean; it pays to be skeptical when reading product info...

CZs are great guns. The fact that CZ as a firm and the Czech people survived the Communist Bloc and Communist influence without direct Western help, is no small achievement. CZ still has to compete on a grossly uneven playing field, and are not only surviving, but growing -- and introducing new, innovative products. Good for them.
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Old December 7, 2012, 09:03 AM   #13
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We don't know what "NATO certified" means. Many weapons are used by NATO forces, and only a few of them have that NATO designation. That doesn't mean that the SIGs, Glock, H&K weapons not wearing that designation are somehow inferior. We don't even know if there are, in fact, "NATO" tests that must be passed, or whether other standards having to do with production practices, are at play. Many of us have looked for answers to these questions, but have been unable to get any resolution.
Man, people just don't like Google these days.

http://cz-usa.com/press-releases/102/

Take it for what you will. As Walt mentioned just because the P01 passed these tests doesn't mean other guns, even other CZs, wouldn't also pass them. I wouldn't get too hung up on it.
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Old December 7, 2012, 09:51 AM   #14
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We've been through this discussion before here on TFL and on other forums. Many of us know how to use Google and know how to read.

If, in fact, you read the cited press release link closely you'll see that it's primarily about the testing and standards required by the Czech National Police and has almost nothing to do with NATO requirements or standards.

A lot can be inferred, but I'm not even sure that CZ's marketing staff was trying to misdirect readers. It simply says the gun is NATO certified, and then describes some of the rigorous testing and standards required by the Czech National Police. A single release addresses two topics. As I said, we know little or nothing about what NATO certification really means, and this press release really doesn't address that topic. That's the problem with marketing announcements...

That same release also says, "Over 60 countries use it as the standard side arm of their Armies, National police forces, National security agencies or other Law enforcement organizations. No other pistol can make this claim." That statement as written means a sale of 50 firearms to a small police department in a former Eastern European country is counted the same as 500,000 firearms sold to a large national military. Last time I checked Beretta has sold (with the original and subsequent contracts) over a million M9's to the US Department of Defense over the past 20 years.

I counsel closely reading what's written and not interpreting too broadly.

.

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Old December 7, 2012, 11:26 AM   #15
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I counsel closely reading what's written and not interpreting too broadly.
The tests are right there for people to read. If you want to discount them that's up to you. Regardless according to that press release the P-01 did pass that test. It's hard to "interpret" numbers when it comes to mean rounds between failure and what not. The firearm does also have a NATO stock number. Again take that for what it is.

Quote:
That statement as written means a sale of 50 firearms to a small police department in a former Eastern European country is counted the same as 500,000 firearms sold to a large national military.
I don't think it does, and I think you're stretching a bit. I imagine there are more than 50 policemen in those Eastern European countries . Now does it have the same user base as the M9? No probably not. But it does seem to show up in a lot of European and Middle Eastern countries, either in its original form or in one of its clones. I think the point CZ is trying to make is that obviously the design has some merit or so many people wouldn't be using it.
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Old December 7, 2012, 11:44 AM   #16
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Read the release again, Tunnel Rat -- after the first sentence, all references to tests and standards have to do with the Czech National Police requirements, or things that the US military looks for. Nothing in there about NATO, NATO specs, or requirements. Show me otherwise. You're misreading and applying the Czech National Police standards to the NATO classification. That is not what the release says.

(You have to appreciate, too, that the original PCRs [Police of the Czech Republic], first used by the Czech National Police, had problems -- frame issues -- that were quickly remedied by CZ. That expierience probably led to the very strong testing regimen used by the Czech National Police with their later acquisitions.)

I think the CZ is a great design. I'm a big fan. My only criticisms have generally do do with their marketing hype -- but some of that isn't THEIR problem. I've had many more CZs than any other weapon. That doesn't mean I blindly accept everything they write on their website as gospel. I know that it's far too easy to misinterpret a lot of what they put in their press releases.

.

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Old December 7, 2012, 12:50 PM   #17
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Read the release again, Tunnel Rat -- after the first sentence, all references to tests and standards have to do with the Czech National Police requirements, or things that the US military looks for. Nothing in there about NATO, NATO specs, or requirements. Show me otherwise. You're misreading and applying the Czech National Police standards to the NATO classification. That is not what the release says.
No I get what you're saying and I understand it's for the Czech police (whom they say have harder requirements than NATO anyway, probably not true but idk for sure). I don't care whether it's a test designed by the Girl Scouts of America or DEVGRU itself. What I care about is what the test actually includes. And if the P01 did pass the test that was described I do think that's at least worth a feather in their cap.

I understand that a lot of this could just be marketing. But until someone has evidence to the contrary I'm inclined to believe them.

Edit: As a note of the three dozen pistols I have owned only 3 of them have been CZs and I only currently own the P01. I like them, but I'm not a die hard by any stretch.
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Old December 7, 2012, 01:45 PM   #18
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Given the environment these weapons will be in by a typical person, I don't think there is much of a difference. I baby the heck out of each of my handguns, and clean them after every range session. Even then I have come NOWHERE near close to disassembling them 1350 times! If I were to go a few sessions without cleaning them, I am still fairly certain that they will go bang everytime. It's more of an OCD thing with me and guns. Outside of wilderness survival, I can't think of another situation where any of my guns would be exposed to even a portion of their tests... And I'm not so sure that I would lather them in mud just to see if they work.

Of course different standards are in place for duty firearms because of how often they change hands, and each person feels a little differently when it comes to maintenance. I think the press release is more of a selling point for departments, although it can be reassuring for the average person as well. I wouldn't read to much into it though, and just go with whatever fits your needs.
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Old December 7, 2012, 03:57 PM   #19
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I've asked this question before and have never gotten a definitive answer: How many major police departments in America issue a CZ pistol to their officers? From my research, I think the answer is none. Now that doesn't mean anything necessarily (and I'm a big CZ aficionado) but I find it curious, especially given the hype regarding the supposed world-wide acceptance of the CZ pistol by major European police departments and the excellence of the CZ design in general and its relative affordability, that more (some?) American police departments haven't adopted it as standard issue. If my "research" has been deficient, I'm still interested (at the risk of de-railing the op's intent in this thread ) in learning the answer to my question.
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Old December 7, 2012, 04:24 PM   #20
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I've asked this question before and have never gotten a definitive answer: How many major police departments in America issue a CZ pistol to their officers?
Honestly I've encountered plenty of people who have no idea what a CZ is. Very surprised when I encounter one in a shop around me. They don't seem to advertise all that much. Contracts for duty weapons are very sought after and often the companies make big concessions in price just to secure them. I'd imagine it's hard for CZ to compete with big players like Glock, Smith and Wesson, and SIG.

I'll go you one further though and ask how many departments these days are still using DA/SA weapons? I'm sure there are some but they're in the minority. Many of them that use SIGs use DAK versions and agencies that use HK often use the LEM variants. DAO is sort of the name of the game in the LEO handgun world. I'm not aware of a CZ DAO model.
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Old December 7, 2012, 04:49 PM   #21
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Most police departments will NOW buy weapons for their officers ONLY if the weapons are actually made in the US. CZ doesn't have that ability, yet -- as all of their weapons are IMPORTED from the Czech Republic.

SIG, S&W and Glock DO have that capability, assembling some parts that are made overseas, manufacturing others, or actually building the entire weapon here. Your company has to have DEEP POCKETS to do that, and CZ's still a fledgling company by "Capitalist" standards. (I'm not sure about Beretta's practices in this matter, but you don't see Berettas used by many departments, nowadays -- although they were once quite common.)

A number of police departments DO allow their officers to use CZs when the officers are free to choose their own weapons, and allow them to use them as off-duty (or backup) weapons, if they "qualify" with them.

I wouldn't expect to see CZs used as a standard (issue) weapon in the U.S. for some time to come. Even Ruger, which builds them here, isn't currently rushing to compete in that arena.

Last edited by Walt Sherrill; December 7, 2012 at 04:58 PM.
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Old December 8, 2012, 01:00 PM   #22
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Glock dominates the market from a price and name stand point. Departments look to buy sidearms look to what every one else is using, and the attached price point. CZ, as pointed out, has only one local factory, the Dan Wesson plant, which burned a few weeks ago. I would LOVE to see a CZ plant, (preferably in Arizona, hint hint, Santa?), as then guns like the CZ -122 could be made here as well, but the expense of duplicating the set up in Uhersky Brod would be a massive undertaking with no clear big finish, not without a major contract.
I've been trying to get my Dept to look at CZ, for the P-07 Duty, the SP-01 Phantom, or even the brand new P-09, but the ossification of the upper crust becomes VERY apparent - over ten years of trying results in, "We use Glock, we have always used Glock, we will always use Glock" mentality...even though we switch from Ruger Service Six revolvers to Glocks scant thirteen years ago. The contract expires soon, and all I want them to do is try them out.
The CZ pistols are more prevalent over seas than here, and are very popular in places like Israel and South Africa. There are several agencies that use the CZ pistols around the world, but here in the US, making headway has been very difficult...maybe someday. I personally know one police chief in a smaller Midwest Department who carries a CZ-75 as his duty sidearm.
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Old December 8, 2012, 06:22 PM   #23
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A cZ manufacturing plant in Arizona! Visions of sugarplums dance in my head.
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Old December 9, 2012, 09:59 AM   #24
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I've asked this question before and have never gotten a definitive answer: How many major police departments in America issue a CZ pistol to their officers? From my research, I think the answer is none.

There are actually quite a few. CZ used to have a sales rep that traveled the US demonstrating and selling to PD's. Then they decided they didn't need that police business and laid him off about 4 years ago. Glock on the other hand has many reps selling to PD's and has from the beginning. Glock doesn't seem to go after military contracts. Beretta seems to concentrate on them. Mostly marketing IMO.
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Old December 9, 2012, 12:47 PM   #25
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Quote:
I've asked this question before and have never gotten a definitive answer: How many major police departments in America issue a CZ pistol to their officers? From my research, I think the answer is none.

There are actually quite a few.
Well, maybe you have the definitive answer to my question then! Since you said "quite a few", maybe you can you tell me which major police departments in America actually issue a CZ pistol to their officers? Even naming one would be interesting to me. Thanks.
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