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Old December 5, 2012, 04:25 AM   #1
youngunz4life
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man pulls gun on man upset about political bumper sticker

http://www.koat.com/news/new-mexico/...tml?hpt=ju_bn6

articles can be deceiving but any thoughts on this nay or yay to the CCWer drawing his pistol?
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Old December 5, 2012, 05:57 AM   #2
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I would call that an over reaction and one of the reasons people don't like gun owners.
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Old December 5, 2012, 06:24 AM   #3
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Brilliant work () on the part of the gun owner... stuff like this plays right into the hands of the anti-gun forces.

If we can't discipline ourselves to use firearms appropriately, someone will do that for us.
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Old December 5, 2012, 06:28 AM   #4
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Something doesn't add up... the veteran was upset over the bumper sticker but "wasn't interested in discussing politics"? Why did he pick the fight then? Telling a complete stranger they should be shot and getting physical with them is definitely asking for a serious confrontation, no matter your stance on the left or right side of the political spectrum.

I have to say I think the charges were pretty harsh. How did the guy he attacked know he wasn't armed until he was searched? Did the police search him thoroughly? It doesn't say. How was Zimmerman supposed to know that Trayvon Martin wasn't armed? If someone picked a fight with me and I was getting beat around, I can't say I would have reacted any differently. Maybe not pinned the guy to the ground with a gun in his face, but I might have pulled it out and told him to get away from me or suffer the consequences.

Last edited by spacecoast; December 5, 2012 at 08:15 AM.
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Old December 5, 2012, 07:37 AM   #5
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I do not see where Rodriguez being a Veteran is particularly relavent.

Williams has a right to his bumper sticker.

If Williams was otherwise minding his own business(we do not know)and if Rodriguez approached him aggressively and initiated shoving(we do not know)

well,then it may not be clear.I do not feel a person has to take a beat down over a bumper sticker,and,if some one is pushing you,when do they hit you?

This story is not clear and specific enough to say whether the firearm was justified.It does have the spin the gun was not justified,but,who knows?

While I do not have personal experience in Albuquerque,by reputation,its a place that may put a man on the defensive edge,perhaps a somewhat hostile environment?No offense intended,but I have had conversations with folks who were telling me of Albuquerque experiences.
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Old December 5, 2012, 07:52 AM   #6
therealdeal
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It's never a good idea to lose your tempre and decide to grab a firearm for whatever reason as things escalate. That being said, and even if that was indeed the case, it is hard not to go on the defensive if a man starts a shouting And shoving match with you over politics. I remember after the first election there were actually stories of people ramming other vehicles who had the president's bumper sticker. Obviously this story is on the opposite side of the spectrum. Hopefully we can get another news story about this incident.
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Old December 5, 2012, 08:51 AM   #7
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This is why you cannot detain someone that part is wrong no doubt. In my mind, if the weapon is coming out of the holster it is going to be because I plan to use it. Not because I plan to intimidate someone into submission, same thing goes for warning shots. Telling the cops "well I only meant to scare him when the gun accidentally went off" is one sure fire way to get into legal trouble.

On the other hand, if someone comes up to me, while I am minding my own business in a parking lot and says "people like you should be shot" then proceeds to begin shoving me(assuming the guy without the gun started it)...yeah I am going to feel threatened.

We do not have enough details but if the concealed carrier(Chris Williams) was NOT the one to initiate the physical contact(shoving) then the only thing he did wrong in my mind was to detain someone.

I don't know much about NM law but I know that if someone in Florida had come up to me, confronted me, threatened me with being shot(arguable) then shoved me I would have been within my legal rights to use my weapon.


Funny story on political bumper stickers though. For a while as a joke we were putting magnetic Pro-Obama magnets on each others cars during the 2008 election. Well one day I am driving down the highway when a car pulls up next to me, proceeds to honk his horn and then flip me off...ok that was odd....not 1 min or 2 later someone does the same thing but waves very friendly towards me.....ok that is REALLY weird. When I got to my destination sure and heck someone had put a giant Pro-Obama magnet on the back of my truck.
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Old December 5, 2012, 08:53 AM   #8
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Not enough information.

Charges were pressed, but the story didn't indicate whether witness statements supported one side vs the other. The story didn't indicate the relative sizes of the two men.

The story did say the "veteran" approached being verbally belligerent, and that a shoving match ensued.

In such a case, who started the shoving? Was there a size or age or infirmity related disparity of force involved? Did the CCW holder have a reasonable avenue of escape? (If he was not in his car at the time, then it might not be reasonable to expect to get into the car without getting pummeled, choked, slammed with his own car door, etc.)

So, it's hard to say whether the drawing of the gun was reasonable.
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Old December 5, 2012, 08:56 AM   #9
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Sounds ligit to me, guy should have just walked away. Says they were in a shoving match, no punches, no need to pull the firearm in my opinion. People like this give the rest of us a bad name. You cant just go around pulling guns on people if you are in a "shoving match" with someone eles. This guy over reacted. Firearms should be the last resort, not the first. Then he pinned the guy to the ground, over a shoving match come on, this guy needs to chill out. The one guy told the other "People like you should be shot," still just an opinion, not really a threat in my book.
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Old December 5, 2012, 08:56 AM   #10
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That is from the news link...sure looks like a "Mugshot' so I assume that is Chris Williams the guy with the gun. Looks to be between 30's and mid 40's and on the larger side of average. Doubt we will ever see pictures of the accuser unless this goes to trial.

I am surprised the cops in this case did not charge the fellow who started all of this with disturbing the peace, Honestly you have go to be pretty off balanced to go and confront someone over a bumper sticker.
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Old December 5, 2012, 09:01 AM   #11
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Corrections Cop, read again. The guy who drew the gun was not the guy making threats.

Rodriguez told Williams, "People like you should be shot."

From the article:
Quote:
Rodriguez told police that he wasn’t interested in discussing politics and told Williams, "People like you should be shot," according to police.

Read more: http://www.koat.com/news/new-mexico/...#ixzz2EBbOFNJa
IE, the guy who started the whole thing was NOT the one who drew.

The paper didn't label the photo. Picture could be Williams or Rodriguez.

If it's Williams, what's to say that Rodriguez isn't six inches and 80 lbs heavier, and a weight lifter?

Again, there is not enough information in the case... and it helps if you actually attribute the verbal shenanigans to the correct speaker.
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Old December 5, 2012, 09:06 AM   #12
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I agree with those that say we don't have enough information.
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Old December 5, 2012, 09:07 AM   #13
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Corrections Cop, I see you edited your post and corrected your initial claim.

So, for those who say, it was only a shoving match, why draw a gun? Tell me, how would you handle it?

Somebody comes up, tells you "People like you should be shot," and commences to get in your face and shove you. What do you do?

I'm a fairly good sized buy, but not huge (6', 205). I'm in reasonably good shape, but not a jock. I do, however, have a little over 20 years of martial arts background (wrestling, kenpo, jujutsu, and mostly aikido). If cornered, but not in mortal fear, I could probably execute some nasty takedowns or locks... but those aren't guaranteed.

A lot of people out there don't have that skillset, or have other limitations that make physical confrontations a losing proposition from the outset. What would you suggest they do?

And, again, what do you think you would do?
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Old December 5, 2012, 09:14 AM   #14
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Mleake so it is clear for everyone

Quote:
Albuquerque police said Chris Williams was approached by Edward Rodriguez in a restaurant parking lot on Friday.

Rodriguez, a veteran, was upset with the content of Williams’s bumper sticker which claimed that America made a big mistake re-electing President Barack Obama. Rodriguez told police that he wasn’t interested in discussing politics and told Williams, "People like you should be shot," according to police.
Chris Williams was the guy with the bumper sticker who was minding his own business, Rodriguez came over and ended up saying "people like you should be shot".

Quote:
After a brief shoving match, police said Williams drew a .380 pistol and forced Rodriguez to the ground. Williams claimed he was restraining Rodriguez until the police arrived.
So again...the guy with the bumper sticker (Chris Williams) seems to have drawn the pistol.

Typical media report though, leaves more quesitons that answers

Last edited by Patriot86; December 5, 2012 at 09:25 AM.
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Old December 5, 2012, 09:51 AM   #15
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This is precisely why I do not place bumper stickers on my vehicle. No one really cares what you think or like and it can attract the attention of people you really don't want to talk to (and also lead to vandalism and theft)
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Old December 5, 2012, 11:27 AM   #16
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Years ago I had a "Don't Blame Me, I Voted for Bush" t-shirt. (Bush I, not II)

I loved wearing it because it cranked people up.

I had a couple of people get in my face about it.

I'd just smile, thank them for sharing their opinion with me, and make it very clear that my shirt was MY opinion on the matter, and it was my right to express it, so would you please have a great day and get the (&()&*$^()&*$()*&^ out of my way...

Never felt the need to draw my gun, even though a couple of people threatened to rip the shirt off me, which on its face is assault.
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Old December 5, 2012, 11:27 AM   #17
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Quote:
Typical media report though, leaves more quesitons that answers
+1 Patriot...and the very reason vague reports like these start so much idle gossip on the internet.

Not enough facts to even make a decent informed comment one way or the other... but just enough info for people to make a bunch of un-informed assumptions, jump to conclusions and argue.
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Old December 5, 2012, 11:28 AM   #18
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Patriot86, I'm not sure if you are disagreeing with me on some point. It seems you are supporting my arguments; hopefully that was the intent.

The paper does not say who started the shoving match. It doesn't describe relative sizes, condition, etc of the two men.

For those who "assume" the photo is of Williams, it might be.

Please note that one of our forum mods is a medium sized male in his 30s or 40s, who, due to prior injuries from a car accident, would risk paralysis if he got into a fist fight. He looks and acts perfectly normal, but he can't be expected to tolerate any degree of physical assault.

So, Williams could be a fit and healthy guy in his 30s or 40s. Williams could be a guy in his 30s or 40s with serious ailments. Or, that picture could be of Rodriguez, for all we know.

The article did not say if Rodriguez was charged, but it seems to me he could well have been charged with some less sexy offense, that the paper did not see fit to report... or, given that it's Albequerque, the paper could have opted out of reporting anything that would put the gun owner/user in a better light.

Of course, it could also be that two fit, healthy, early middle age men were just plain stupid.

We just don't know, based on the article, so a lot of people seem to be leaping to conclusions.
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Old December 5, 2012, 11:30 AM   #19
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A little more info:

http://www.abqjournal.com/main/2012/...in-arrest.html
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Old December 5, 2012, 11:37 AM   #20
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Hal, that additional article added more confusion, IMO.

On the bright side, it offers the further detail that Rodriguez allegedly initiated the physical contact; so, the article should have been "Man pulls gun on man who assaults him over political bumper sticker."

On the not so bright side, it offers the further detail that in addition to the gun, Williams had three knives in his pockets, plus a neck knife on a chain. That will make him look pretty mall ninja to many in the jury pool.

On the media leaving out details side, the knives could have been one folder, one leatherman, and one swiss army, which would sound much different to jurors than, say, an Arkansas toothpick and two Sykes-Fairbairns.

The fact that Rodriguez was unarmed may or may not have any bearing, depending on whether NM law allows deadly force against simple assault, or whether Williams could establish that a reasonable person would also have thought Rodriguez were armed.
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Old December 5, 2012, 11:53 AM   #21
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So now the guy has 3 knives and a gun and pulls the gun when someone pushes him over a disagreement. I would have tryed to walk away, pressure points, PPCT ect, if I had too, gun would be absolute last resort for a deadly force confrontation. Dont know why people feal the need to pull out guns when someone pushes them? That is prisoner logic.
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Old December 5, 2012, 11:59 AM   #22
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Corrections Cop, once again....

Some people have physical disabilities that prevent them from using SD techniques, or effecting escapes.

Some people are physically able, but have no hand to hand training of any type.

In this case, we don't know about Williams' physical condition or hand to hand skills. We don't know if he could have safely turned his back in order to get into his vehicle.

We also don't know how physically menacing Rodriguez might be.

So you would fall back on techniques that you learned as a CO, or use LTL devices you have probably learned to use as a CO. Fantastic. I just spent the last hour and a half or so teaching a couple gate sentries how to handle people grabbing and shoving them; my way involves wrist locks and other joint manipulations. Fantastic. We also worked on weapon disarms. Also fantastic.

Most average Joes are not you and me.

FYI, I'm also 44. The gate sentries were in their 20s, and in my weight class. One would think Army security types would be pretty formidable at hand to hand. A layperson might reasonably expect that either one would do a number on the middle-aged guy. No offense to the two guys, but I tossed them around like dolls. They plan on coming back for more, tomorrow, and also plan to bring some friends.

Without more information about Williams, Rodriguez, and the nature of the shoving match, it's hard to make informed judgements.
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Old December 5, 2012, 12:06 PM   #23
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it's possible there is video to back up the claims of williams. as in, it might show rodriquez approaching williams, shoving him first, not backing off, and then the story of williams completely adding up: "I drew my weapon and waited for police". I am not saying williams made the right decision by any means, just that more info is needed as noted by other posters but also that charges might be swiftly dropped, updated, etc. I think you can only carry one gun in NM for CCW...not sure about knives but the knife issue didn't seem to help anything
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Old December 5, 2012, 12:21 PM   #24
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Quote:
Hal, that additional article added more confusion, IMO.
What can I say? I don't write em, I just post a link to em.

BTW - not to drift off topic - but - they ever find that dirt ball out your way that tried to snatch the girl?
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Old December 5, 2012, 12:51 PM   #25
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The man arrested could probably have said "I'm sorry you feel your fellow citizens should be shot, for expressing their political opinions." Or something to that effect, then got in his car and drove away. Avoidance, is always our first line of defense.

If the veteran was truly a threat to the man arrested and he'd pulled his CCW, then told him to get away, or he'd shoot. Then called the police and reported the disturbance after the man left, or even shot him had he advanced, Williams probably wouldn't have been arrested. As others have said in this thread, we don't know what the witness statements are and we haven't read the officers reports. So we have to wait till all the facts are in.

Speaking of the arresting officers, they were the ones on the ground. They were the ones that heard both sides and arrested Chris Williams. Assuming they are fair men, who follow the law, that tells us a lot right there. Not taking sides, not pre-judging, just noting one of the most salient facts.
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