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Old December 6, 2012, 08:53 AM   #26
mitchntx
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Quote:
You seem even more confused. How about instead of making up bogus examples that you actually provide some real proof of your believed shady deals. You say you fear the people may be members here. You have nothing to fear by that. If that is the case, they have made offers on a public venue and so they have nothing to hide. That YOU think the deal is shady is your opinion, but contrary to your belief, it is a common, established, often used business practice. You have nothing to fear by posting a link that you don't understand. That you keep flipflopping around in your descriptions does not help. You need to provide actual examples about which you have expressed a lack of comprehension.

Otherwise, you just appear to be complaining about imaginary things and they are imaginary because you won't cite any real examples.
There is no reason for a personal attack.

Chill out and be respectful. I chose to respect how others conduct business. That doesn't make me a liar or a complainer.

Again, I appreciate your POV ... it doesn't mean I have to share it.


Quote:
People who inflate to trade are looking for the PT Barnum kind of buyer...
Exactly ...
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Old December 6, 2012, 08:56 AM   #27
MLeake
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It could be that.

It could also be that they figure they will end up selling the trade-in gun, and don't know what they will get for it on the sale, so they are hedging their bets.

If one could offer a trade-in that the seller wanted for himself, as opposed to something the seller intended to sell or barter at a later time, then one might get a better trade-in value.
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Old December 6, 2012, 09:15 AM   #28
Eppie
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Mitchntx

Hi Mitch,
Your question about the difference between cash sale and trade value is a good one. I've seen the same kind of posting on Texas Gun Trader web site, and I always imagine some poor country boy sitting on a porch wittling on a stick trying to solve this riddle.

I remember distintively in my first lecture in economics class the professor talked about a barter economy (before money) where people spent a lot of time trying to determine relative value ie: two fish vs a loaf of bread. The conclusion is that there is no answer to relative value because it varies from individual to individual, their supply of a good and their demand for another good. If you introduce spoilage and portability factors it gets even more complicated. This is why money is used by every culture on the planet.


The bottom line is: forget the trade value listing and the only value that matters is cash value.
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Last edited by Eppie; December 6, 2012 at 09:22 AM.
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Old December 6, 2012, 10:16 AM   #29
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Quote:
There is no reason for a personal attack.

Chill out and be respectful. I chose to respect how others conduct business. That doesn't make me a liar or a complainer.

Again, I appreciate your POV ... it doesn't mean I have to share it.
No personal attack. By your own statements, you have stated that you don't comprehend and because you don't, you have made accusations of the deals being shady. You have also expressed having a double standard for pricing, but don't think others should do that. If they do it, they are shady. If you do it, it is appropriate.

Since you won't provide an actual example of what you are talking about, we have no way of knowing what you are basing your accusasations.

You seem so worried about being given more for a trade-in without ever considering if the object being sold is being sold for a fair price. If the object beind sold is being sold for a fair price, why would you complain about being offered more for a trade-in? Either way, the seller has posted a cash price for which he wants to sell his item. He is willing to accept X cash or offer somebody incentive if they can provide him with a gun he wants. The option for the bonus % for a trade-in is still GOOD BUSINESS.

Maybe you are fearful that the selling might make too much on the deal somehow? Exactly how is it that the seller is being shady. The prices are stated. Either you take the deal or you don't. There is NOTHING dishonest in what the seller is doing, but that is exactly what you are implying when you are saying that you think what they are doing is shady.

Since you say you don't share my opinion, how about explaining exactly how it is that the deal is shady. What actual indications do you have that the seller is doing something wrong? The parameters are stated up front.
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Old December 6, 2012, 10:30 AM   #30
psyfly
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Some of us just like to barter. I'm fortunate that I have a good job and enough income to meet my needs. I'm not wealthy but I don't need cash.

I do agree with the OP that posting two prices is a little odd.

As a matter of fact, since I don't sell many guns and do trade a few, I feel that posting any price is counter-productive and will usually decline to do so.

Relative value is not at all difficult to determine between two (even as many as three) individuals: If I want what you have to offer and you want what I have to trade, we're good to go, sometimes with minor adjustments.

I have a personal trade policy in which either party, if unhappy, can return to zero with the unhappy party paying all shipping and fees to return so. I've never felt I was involved on either end of any shadiness.

If you've got something to trade, PM me .

Best,

Will
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Old December 6, 2012, 06:35 PM   #31
mitchntx
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DSN ... give it a rest, dude.
Find another cause, please.
You seem to be fixated on proving me wrong.
You are going over the line.
This is only the internet and not real life.

Have a great day!


Quote:
Hi Mitch,
Your question about the difference between cash sale and trade value is a good one. I've seen the same kind of posting on Texas Gun Trader web site, and I always imagine some poor country boy sitting on a porch wittling on a stick trying to solve this riddle.

I remember distintively in my first lecture in economics class the professor talked about a barter economy (before money) where people spent a lot of time trying to determine relative value ie: two fish vs a loaf of bread. The conclusion is that there is no answer to relative value because it varies from individual to individual, their supply of a good and their demand for another good. If you introduce spoilage and portability factors it gets even more complicated. This is why money is used by every culture on the planet.


The bottom line is: forget the trade value listing and the only value that matters is cash value.
Thanks ...
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Old December 6, 2012, 07:12 PM   #32
Eppie
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Mitch,
I believe that one of the reasons people invoke "trade value" gimickry is because it is so vexing and invariably confuses everyone. From a sales point a confused buyer is less likely to act rationally (with reason) and therefore is more likely to make an a bad deal.

As someone else pointed out earlier in the tread, when people start talking trade value, just get up and walk out.
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Old December 6, 2012, 10:35 PM   #33
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I still have no idea what the thread topic is. Very confusing Mitch.

If I were this confused with a seller's approach, I simply would choose not to do business. The FFL dealer who has a store has to come out ahead of the game in a trade or paying cash for a sellers gun/trade. Otherwise he won't remain in business long unless it is for something special that the dealer really wants (usually for himself).

Highest prices paid for guns? Highest trade values in exchange for guns in stock? Sounds like a gold buyer. Market +10%... (Define market price) Gimicks.
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Old December 6, 2012, 10:48 PM   #34
spanishjames
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Here's an example DNS:
Quote:
for sale for $500 or trade value $575
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...ight=wtt+value

I don't think it's a shady practice, but it can become confusing.
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Old December 6, 2012, 10:50 PM   #35
spanishjames
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And another one:

Quote:
$300 Firm Cash/$350 Trade
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...ight=wtt+value
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Old December 6, 2012, 11:26 PM   #36
Double Naught Spy
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Not shady at all - simply offering multiple deal possibilities. Once again, a good business practice in order to try to make a deal happen. They are showing a willingness to negotiate more than one way.
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Old December 6, 2012, 11:28 PM   #37
22-rimfire
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Quote:
for sale for $500 or trade value $575
Makes sense to me. Basically as the "seller" you want a certain cash price or a higher "value" in a trade situation for your gun. Establishing "value" is subject to some discussion.
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Old December 7, 2012, 06:13 AM   #38
mitchntx
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22rimfire said:
Quote:
I still have no idea what the thread topic is. Very confusing Mitch.
It has certainly taken a twist for the bizzare, hasn't it.


Quote:
Makes sense to me. Basically as the "seller" you want a certain cash price or a higher "value" in a trade situation for your gun. Establishing "value" is subject to some discussion.
I'll try once again ...

Makes sense, but what's the point?

If I have something to trade, I will inflate the value of what I have accordingly.

I would be foolish not to. So why even go there?

If both owners agree that the trade is good, then value is relative and the actual number is immaterial. Fully understand that part and maybe that is the subtle point this whole train wreck is about.

Last edited by mitchntx; December 7, 2012 at 06:25 AM.
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Old December 7, 2012, 04:10 PM   #39
22-rimfire
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I think the point is that the trade goods have to be valued more than the cash price for a deal to be considered since inorder to liquidate the "trade goods" it will take time and effort before "cash" is seen. The value is subject to the buyer and sellers agreement and I don't think you can inflate them for the deal.
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Old December 7, 2012, 09:34 PM   #40
MLeake
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I think the point is that the OP is accusing sellers of being shady for offering a lower price for cash... which is odd, because a lot of sales (cars, gas, houses) are just that way.
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Old December 7, 2012, 10:23 PM   #41
mitchntx
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22-Rimfire said
Quote:
I think the point is that the trade goods have to be valued more than the cash price for a deal to be considered since inorder to liquidate the "trade goods" it will take time and effort before "cash" is seen. The value is subject to the buyer and sellers agreement and I don't think you can inflate them for the deal.
I guess if the goal is to sell, that's a good point.
How many individuals are doing that, though?


MLeake said
Quote:
I think the point is that the OP is accusing sellers of being shady for offering a lower price for cash... which is odd, because a lot of sales (cars, gas, houses) are just that way.
Not at all.

While I compared it to a car sales, I do consider it shady for a dealership to offer more trade and at the same time artificially inflate the sales price.

But I'm not seeing gun dealers do this. It's private, individual sales primarily.

The point all along, as it pertains guns, has been why two values for a cash deal vs a trade deal in a private, non-dealer sale?

Marketing, resale, and just because have all been discussed.
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Old December 8, 2012, 04:14 AM   #42
MLeake
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Same concept. The seller knows the value of your cash. He does not know the practical value of your trade.
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Old December 8, 2012, 07:15 AM   #43
mitchntx
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I disagree. Buying for cash and trading for cash are the same thing.

At any rate ... thanks everyone for the "debate". It was certainly thought provoking.
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Old December 8, 2012, 11:28 PM   #44
22-rimfire
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Quote:
I disagree. Buying for cash and trading for cash are the same thing.
I believe you're wrong there if the objective by the seller is to put cash in his pocket ultimately. The seller is taking another risk by accepting a trade; hence he wants a higher value of the trade item(s) as compared to the cash value he has placed on the gun.

It would be perfectly understandable if the seller said $500 for my gun cash or $500 +3% with credit card. This is done all the time at gunshops. The seller simply wants to minimize his risk when considering a trade for his $500 gun. Assuming the seller's objective is cash in his pocket that he can spend... he wants more estimated value on a trade for his firearm. He can't buy groceries with a gun valued at $575 until he takes the time to sell it which might take months.

Would it be more understandable if the seller said $500 cash or trade + $75?? Dealers at gun shows do that kind of deal all the time. Essentially they are getting their "profit" in cash before trying to sell the higher valued gun.

The problem there is that if it is a regular FFL dealer, the used gun price on the $575 gun is probably more like $900 to make the deal work.

Last edited by 22-rimfire; December 8, 2012 at 11:36 PM.
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Old December 8, 2012, 11:49 PM   #45
jasmith85
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I have done something similar to what you are describing when selling a gun before. At the time I preferred to sell so I put in the ad what I considered the value of the gun and said I would be willing to trade for the right gun but would accept $50 under my considered value for cash. There is nothing shady about it, just giving incentive for someone to buy it rather than making a trade.
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Old December 9, 2012, 10:39 AM   #46
johnbt
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"But I'm not seeing gun dealers do this. It's private, individual sales primarily."

I know one successful gun store over in the Valley that has listed 2 prices on their hang tags for the past 15 years or so. They list the cash price and the trade price - which is usually $100 more on your typical $1000 to $3000 shotgun by Guerini, Browning or Beretta.

They do the same on their handguns, but being a cash customer I don't recall the price spread.

It takes cash to run a business and a bunch of extra guns sitting on the shelf for some unknown period of days or weeks won't pay the bills this week.

I suppose the short version is that there's a discount for cash buyers.

John
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