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Old December 6, 2012, 08:16 AM   #26
243winxb
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Quote:
Out of curiosity, why couldn't the OP simply size to whatever dimension just allows the bolt to close,
and quit worrying about that aspect of the problem.
Brass can be damaged on the very first firing. It can not be fixed. If headspace is excessive on the very first firing of new brass or factory ammo, the case may fail if there is more then .010" slop in the fit. I feel it takes at least .014" or more for the brass to fail on the first firing. It may take more than 1 firing, this is why factory ammo, that is almost always under size, does not fail with 1 firing. But the brass is already damaged on that 1 firing. Some old military rifles with lots of excessive headspace will get case head separation every time with new factory ammo.
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Old December 6, 2012, 10:18 AM   #27
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Quote:
this is why factory ammo, that is almost always under size, does not fail with 1 firing. But the brass is already damaged on that 1 firing.
well here is a question. Can a case be stretched by using a full size die on it?

reason I am asking is this. As I stated in my previous post I initially set the head space using a piece of Hornady factory loaded ammo which as you stated is a bit on the short side. After that I have only neck sized them using a Forster BR neck sizer which I have set for a very loose bullet fit. On occasion a bullet will be a bit too loose so I keep a Lee full case resizer with the decapping pin broke off near the bench and just dump the powder into a pan and resize the case using the Lee die and then continue to load it. reason I am asking is that sometime 1 or 2 out of 50 of the reloads I would feel a moderate resistance when closing the bolt and wondered if I could have been setting that shoulder back in the process with the chamber and head space being set too tight.
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Old December 6, 2012, 10:24 AM   #28
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Yeah.... Your die should be set by the chamber in your gun, not by factory ammo or any other "standard".
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Old December 6, 2012, 11:36 AM   #29
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head space and the feeler gage, the companion to the press

I will assume you have a slack adjuster as in a Savage rifle with a barrel nut and you have a head space gage. The head space gage is nice but not necessary, again, I do not shoot gages, I shoot ammo. The ammo I shoot is minimum length or full length sized in my press with dies and shell holders. I have an advantage, instructions, as in barrel instillation instructions. From Douglas, two techniques and or methods, one method with a gage the other with minimum length, store bought factory ammo, then there is the other may, the transfer method/technique.

I do not insist on setting/reaming/adjusting the length of the chamber to go-gage length, without the go-gage the length of the chamber can be adjusted/reamed/set to minimum length or minimum length +. And, I make chamber length gages, they measure from –.012 shorten than minimum length to + .016” over the length of a minimum length case when measured from the head of the case to the shoulder of the case. As I have said before “I am the fan of cutting down on all that case travel”

Bad habits, the 204 is a small case, it has been assumed the case should behave in the same manner as the 270 W and 30/06 etc., when it comes to insipient (case head) separation, I have fired 8mm57 in 8mm06 chambers, there is .121” difference in length from the head of the case to the shoulder, that is interpreted as excessive head space or excessive chamber length or too much difference in length between the chamber and case when measured from the usual places. Back to Hatcher, he knew a case would not stretch .080” he knew a case that was shorter by .080” than the chamber from the head of the case to its shoulder would separate when fired, it didn’t. Hatcher became a fire former, he formed 30/06 Hatcher +.080 cases from 30/06 Springfield cases, Hatcher assumed, he did not scribe the location of the case body/shoulder juncture and shoulder/neck juncture, Hatcher assumed the case stretched. He assumed the firing pin drove the bullet, case and powder assemble to the front of the chamber shoulder, that did not happen.

Receiver designs, never discussed, it is always the “assumed” all receivers behave in the same predictable way, back to Hatcher, the design of Hatchers test rifles failed him. I have formed 30 Gibbs cases, that is .127” excessive length for the 30/06 case from the head of the case to its shoulder with no support of the case body,/shoulder, I would never attempt that with a push feed design receiver or an 03 or 03A3 receiver, but I can modify the 03-03/A3 long enough to form cases.

It is assumed the 204 separated in the usual manner, the firing pin attempts to strike the primer, the bullet, case and powder (as an assemble), in an attempt to escape the firing pin strike runs to the front of the chamber, then! the firing pin strikes the primer, pressure builds and the case locks onto the chamber and the case head moves back against the bolt face. Then separation. Consider: The case is not driven forward but held to the rear, consider the case no longer has the ability to form/fill the chamber, instead the case separates when being blown forward.

Then consider the bad habit of lubing cases ‘like bench resters’, it is necessary to remove lube from cases before firing, lubing cases is not the panacea of fire forming, lube the rear half of the case, then fire, if there is any truth to ‘case locks onto the chamber when fired, it is possible to have no lube on the front half of the case with lube on the rear half, if front half of the case locks onto the chamber with the rear half lubed it is possible the rear half could start to show signs of separation.

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Old December 6, 2012, 11:45 AM   #30
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will order a case length headspace gage for .204 next time I do a online order. have not had any issues with my .308 or .260 cases and I have shot them a lot more than the .204.

Anyone use the Hornady set? Wilsons are 25 each at Midway and only for a single size, the Hornady is 37 and works with all calibers

That brings up a couple of other questions.

Can I use my headspace gages to set my dies with? I have a .204 and a 260/308 gage

I have never set the shoulder back on any of my cases, the 308's are now in the double digits of reloads. I have never really been sure of when one should set the shoulder back.
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Old December 6, 2012, 11:57 AM   #31
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You checked the chamber with a head space gage, something like go-gage length +.001”. I am the fan of transfers, standards and verifying, I believe in verifying.

After adjusting the slack adjuster with the go-gage transfer the the go-gage to the press/shell holder, raise the ram then (with the primer punch/neck sizer plug assemble removed) and adjust the go-gage down until it contacts the go-gage shoulder then stop and secure the die to the press with the lock ring without turning the die, the die must be held while the lock ring is secured. After securing the die in the press and adjusted with the go-gage the die is adjusted to size the case to a go-gage length chamber, a skilled reloader with a feeler gage can determine the difference in length between the go-gage chamber and a minimum length /full length case by measuring the gap between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder. Others? Just talk about it.

Get to know the tools you use, become familiar with the tools you use. Me? I reach for the feeler gage, the companion tool to the press. The length of the chamber, the ability of the press, die and shell holder to restore a case to minimum length/full length size a case can be correlated with ‘THE GAP’ between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder.

Shell holder and head space gage? When a head space gage is used to determine the accuracy of the die there is almost always a problem with the head space gage fitting the shell holder, do not panic, remember I said the deck height of the shell holder is .125”, therefore it does not matter what shell holder is used as long as the deck height is .125”. After that there are shell holder looking shell holders that are bullet swages, can not miss.

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Old December 6, 2012, 12:02 PM   #32
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I guess I'm a little confused about what you're doing..

This is a Savage rifle and you used factory Hornady ammo to set the head-space?

Ok, if you do that, it might not be technically correct but it should be perfectly functional, so long as you understand the effect it's having and set your dies accordingly.

All you need to do is set the die to size the shoulder .001 or .002(at most) shorter than the Hornady ammo.

If you have an actual "Go-gauge", you should be using that to set the barrel to minimum and then you can set your dies the exact same way. Run gauge into the press, screw the die down until it touches the gauge, remove the gauge and screw the die down another .001.
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Old December 6, 2012, 12:07 PM   #33
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Set the shoulder back?, Never set the shoulder back, apply the leaver policy, leaver where you founder. It is one of those statements that sounds ‘cool’ “fire the case to form, then neck size it 5 times, then full length size the case to start over” HOW? Can a reloader start over with a case that has been fired 6 times, the case has been fired 6 times! Then there is the other bad habit ‘saying’, the case is not fully grown until it has been fired 5 times etc..

Then there are my cases, my cases get hammered, hammering a case from the inside out causes them to loose their memory, I form first, then fire, others fire to form then repeat the cool statements above like “Fire it 6 times then start over”, I am the fan of cutting down on all that case travel.

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Old December 6, 2012, 12:17 PM   #34
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"If you have an actual "Go-gauge", you should be using that to set the barrel to minimum and then you can set your dies the exact same way. Run gauge into the press, screw the die down until it touches the gauge, remove the gauge and screw the die down another .001."
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If a gage has been used as a transfer to adjust the die to and or off the shell holder the the person doing the transfer/adjustment would have notice the go-gage will be prevented from being used because of the primer punch/sizer plug assemble and the shell holder may not accept the gage.

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Old December 6, 2012, 12:23 PM   #35
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thanks guffy, that is what I just did. Got a Manson gage for the .204 and a Forster for the 260/308
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Old December 6, 2012, 12:34 PM   #36
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Yes, well, one might also remove the primer punch. I should think that some things are obvious enough to go without saying.
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Old December 6, 2012, 12:39 PM   #37
243winxb
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Stretching

Quote:
Can a case be stretched by using a full size die on it?
The stretching/separation happens on firing ammo that has a loose fit in the chamber. You should not have had this with setting the rifles headspace on a factory round, then neck sizing. Very strange, has me confused. Savage owners have been screwing on after market barrels & headspacing using factory loaded rounds. At times, brass that is FL sized, will not fit into the chamber of the rifle. This is because the rifles headspace is set to short & the sized brass has "stretched" The factory ammo will be on the short side when measured from head to datum. The FL die may "stretch" this measurement longer, as the case body is sized. Just like when the trim length gets longer when FL sizing.
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Old December 6, 2012, 01:48 PM   #38
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Do NOT -- repeat NOT -- set the sizing die to match any chamber GO/NOGO headspace gauge.
Do NOT.

Similarly, do NOT set the sizing die to match any unfired commercial ammunition.

If you are going to set up the sizing die at all, use the "bolt-just-closes" dimension that you get
by gradually squeezing the sides of a fired case in using a gradually screwed-in sizing die (until the bolt
won't close at all unless you screw it in some more.)

If for some reason you never get to that bolt-won't-close point, just use the largest dimension that case
showed before the die began to finally push the shoulder back.
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Old December 6, 2012, 01:50 PM   #39
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Quote:
Do NOT -- repeat NOT -- set the sizing die to match any chamber GO/NOGO headspace gauge. Do NOT.
If that's the way your chamber is set, why would you not? At least as a starting point?
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Old December 6, 2012, 02:09 PM   #40
mehavey
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Quote:
If that's the way your chamber is set, why would you not? At least as a starting point?
The Go/NOGO gauges only tell you that the chamber is bigger than the GO gauge, and smaller than the
NOGO gauge. Neither tells you where the chamber is actually cut (unless you get stiff bolt closure)
-- only that it's between two dimensions (which could be 6-8 thousandths delta)

Commercial ammo size to GO dimensions to make sure it will 1st-time function in any rifle in-spec. It invariably
stretches during firing from that dimension to fit the actual chamber. If we size back down to that GO headspace
again and again, the brass will eventually separate if it's repeatedly fired in a chamber that's near the NOGO dimension.

Problem is... you don't really know what the actual chamber is unless you have a full set of headspace gauges.
http://www.forsterproducts.com/store.asp?pid=26979

Naturally (being parnoid) I have all three





(Then again, maybe Messr Guffey has a feeler gauge methodology for the GO Gauge)

Last edited by mehavey; December 6, 2012 at 02:23 PM.
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Old December 6, 2012, 02:17 PM   #41
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Yeah, but I'm talking about a chamber that was headspaced USING the Go-Gauge.

Specifically, a Savage rifle, where it's as simple as putting the gauge in with the extractor and ejector removed, screwing the barrel down until it stops on the gauge and then tightening the lock-nut.

Seems like then using the gauge to set your dies, especially if you use Redding body dies, would be perfect. If not Redding, you'd just have to remove the decapper.
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Old December 6, 2012, 02:24 PM   #42
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If you've actually done that (screwed the barrel in `til it stopped) I stand corrected.
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Old December 6, 2012, 02:43 PM   #43
243winxb
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SAAMI Standards- Head to Datum

1.5613" minimum chamber VS 1.5645" maximum factory ammo. Bolt has to size brass/push shoulder back in the chamber on loading by .0032" Most dies may not size to the minimum. From Lee's website-
Quote:
Our full length sizing dies are cut to size the case closer to the middle of the SAAMI dimension, because that is where most rifle's chambers are made, and to size to the minimum would shorten case life.
http://leeprecision.net/support/inde...ming-vs-sizing

Last edited by 243winxb; December 6, 2012 at 02:49 PM.
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Old December 6, 2012, 02:48 PM   #44
F. Guffey
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Quote:
If that's the way your chamber is set, why would you not? At least as a starting point?

The Go/NOGO gauges only tell you that the chamber is bigger than the GO gauge, and smaller than the
NOGO gauge. Neither tells you where the chamber is actually cut (unless you get stiff bolt closure)
-- only that it's between two dimensions (which could be 6-8 thousandths delta)




I have no ideal what chamber Mehavey is refering to or talking about, one more time, I make gages, I make gages to measure gages, I can verify the length of a case from the head of the case to the shoulder of the case, I also make datum gages, I collect datums, I purchase datums, I make datums, my world must seem boring to other reloaders, I wake up in the same world I went to sleep in, I do not have the problem of waking up in a new world everyday..

Mehavey, There is no such thing as a twilight zone between the go-gage and the no go-gage, the extreme measurement (dofference in length) between the go and no go gage for the 30/06 is .004”. After ‘that’ comes the field reject gage, the difference in length between the no go-gage and field reject gage is .005”. Then there is the go-gage length chamber that drives reloaders to the curb, it is .005” longer than the minimum length case from the head of the case to the shoulder of the case. Outside of the Internet the length of the factory made ammo is referre4d to as ‘MINIMUM LENGTH’ or ‘FULL LENGTH SIZED’ in my world the minimum length is referred to as having a length of .000, when I shim my die off the shell holder with a feeler gage I I am adding length to the case from the head of the case to the shoulder.

Back to the N1917 Eddystone, it has a long chamber, the chamber in one of my M1917s as a chamber that is longer than a field reject gage, when I chamber a minimum length 30/06 case in the M1917 with the long chamber the difference in length between the chamber from the bolt face to the chamber shoulder is longer than the minimum length case by .016”, that is .002”longer than the field reject length chamber.

“One more time” I am not a fire former, simple, no skill required, I am a case former, I form first. Not a problem for me, everyone else had trouble with the ‘move the shoulder forward’ without firing. I find cases with shoulders forward if where I want it, for me is is a simple matter of moving the shoulder back.

I use 280 Remington cases for long 30/06 chambers, my Eddystone has a shoulder that is forward .011” of a go-gage length chamber, to form cases that fit with .002” clearance or to form field reject length cases I form (move back)the shoulder on the 280 Remington .036” by adjusting the die off the shell holder .014”, and yes, I have a forming die for the 30/06.

When I fire cases in my Eddystone with a chamber that is .016” longer than a minimum length case there is .002” difference in length, again, I am the fan of cutting down on all that case travel. When I move the shoulder on a case I do not bump it, I wreck it, meaning the shoulder is erased and become part of something else, everyone else insist on bumping. My new shoulder is not a part of the old shoulder.

Again, I determine the length of the chamber first measured in thousandths.

F. Guffey

Last edited by F. Guffey; December 6, 2012 at 02:49 PM. Reason: add about
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Old December 6, 2012, 03:00 PM   #45
F. Guffey
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“Most dies may not size to the minimum”

Most reloaders? It is not the die it is the reloader that determines the ability of the press, die and shell holder to size a case to minimum length/full length size, again, sometimes the case whips the press, other times the press whips the case and there is measure before and again after.

Then there is the advise, long on helping someone to spend their money and short on instructions.

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Old December 6, 2012, 03:14 PM   #46
F. Guffey
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Mehavey,

“Problem is... you don't really know what the actual chamber is unless you have a full set of headspace gauges”

You, don’t really know the actual chamber ‘LENGTH!’ until you learn and develop skills necessary to measure the length of the chamber.

I know the chamber length, I measure the chamber length first, a set of gages is not necessary.

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Old December 6, 2012, 03:42 PM   #47
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Ok just to make sure I have this correct

This is a Savage 10 (Stevens) short action. I used the go gage to set my barrel, screwed it down till it stopped, tightened the barrel nut. rechecked to make sure bolt was closing with a minimum of resistance at the bottom of the stroke. Started adding steel shims to the go gage .001 at a time. At .001 there was mild resistance to closing the bolt, at .002 it would only close half way, at .003 it would not close at all.

Then I set my sizing die, minus trhe decapper of course, by placing the go gage into the shell holder (mine fit well) and screwing down the die until I felt resistance, then locking the nut on the die.

Near as I can tell I should be good to go. The only thing that has me concerned is why maybe one or two cases out of every fifty before this felt tight when closing the bolt. This bullet is no where near the lands so you can rule that out.
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Old December 6, 2012, 03:50 PM   #48
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You're getting some resistance because you're sizing the brass exactly to match your chamber dimensions... there's no room for error. The brass has a bit of "springback", some less, some more. Some fit perfectly, some not so much.

In spite of Mr Guffey's objections, many people find best accuracy when the cases are sized about .001 "shorter" than the chamber. "Bump" the shoulder back .001.

Die threads are typically 1/14 pitch. That means an entire turn is 1/14th or 0.07 of an inch. If you go for .001 bump, it's hardly any additional turn at all, 1.5% of a turn, roughly.
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Old December 6, 2012, 03:58 PM   #49
F. Guffey
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Ok just to make sure I have this correct

This is a Savage 10 (Stevens) short action. I used the go gage to set my barrel, screwed it down till it stopped, tightened the barrel nut. rechecked to make sure bolt was closing with a minimum of resistance at the bottom of the stroke. Started adding steel shims to the go gage .001 at a time. At .001 there was mild resistance to closing the bolt, at .002 it would only close half way, at .003 it would not close at all.

Then I set my sizing die, minus the decapper of course, by placing the go gage into the shell holder (mine fit well) and screwing down the die until I felt resistance, then locking the nut on the die.

Near as I can tell I should be good to go. The only thing that has me concerned is why maybe one or two cases out of every fifty before this felt tight when closing the bolt. This bullet is no where near the lands so you can rule that out.

Hounddawg, If you adjusted the die down to the shoulder of the go-gage, you “Near as I can tell I should be good to go?” will be sizeing cases that are the same length as the chamber, that leads to cases chambering with felt bolt closing, that is the reason I suggested you use a feeler gage to determine the distance the die is off the shell holder after removing the go-gage., after the gap has been established you can reduce the gap for sizing cases that are shorter than the chamber.

F. Guffey

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Old December 6, 2012, 04:06 PM   #50
F. Guffey
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Brian Pfleuger,

"In spite of Mr Guffey's objections"

you are going to have to help me find where you came up with the objection. As with the M1917, with the additional length of .016”, the case is formed with an additional .014” added to the length of the case, that leaves .002” difference in length between the chamber and case.

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