The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: General Handgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 4, 2012, 06:11 PM   #26
nate45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,746
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Grump
Besides without knowing where the 50% number came from I bet it was referring to fight stopper, not kills.
Yes, those are Marshall & Sanow's OSS numbers I posted. Its just below 50% by there formula for the 158 grain LRN. I'm on record as being skeptical of their methodology.

I do see many people reference their works on here though and they seem to support their work. Especially when it comes to the .357 Magnum and the 1400+ fps 125 grain JHP. So I used their figures too, just to add to my point. As others here on TFL have pointed out in the past, its generally agreed, that regardless of the validity of their statistical work, many cartridges from M&S's list, match with the gel testing, autopsy reports, FBI studies and all the rest.

The example I gave of the .357 is one of those that match with other schools of thought. The .38 Special 158 grain LRN, is generally seen as a marginal to poor performer. M&S rates it as being one shot effective, a little less than half the time. Compared to 96% for the .357 125 grain JHP and 96% for the .45 ACP 230 grain JHP, 47%-49% is not so great.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Space Coast
Old Grump -

No disrespect intended at all, but that chart doesn't impart much useful information (as is the case with a lot of statistics). A naive person looking at it would conclude that a .22 is better than average and more effective than a .44mag at causing a fatality.
Yeah, that fatality chart tells us nothing about stopping effectiveness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Sneaky Steve
Hey Nate45, that Nosler bullet looks a little light on the crimp.
It does. I believe thats a factory Winchester Partition Gold though. I didn't take that picture, either. I'm almost 100% certain I'm right though. The bullet was said to have been recovered from a water test. Water isn't good a telling us about penetration, but it usually shows a great likeness of expansion in flesh and bone.
__________________
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
(>_<)
nate45 is offline  
Old December 4, 2012, 06:34 PM   #27
pete2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 15, 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 813
Can't use a .38 at all, gotta have a plastic gun that shoots at least 18 times and be at least .40 cal. Everyone knows this.
pete2 is offline  
Old December 5, 2012, 11:02 PM   #28
nate45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,746
Nanuk

Below is a video of a man getting shot in the abdomen with a .38 Special 158 grain lead round nose, standard velocity. It looks like it hurt and it was a fatal injury.

Lee Harvey Oswald Assassination



I don't want to get hit with a .22 either. A .22 lr could hit someone in the chest and go through the heart, or hit the spine and drop them in their tracks. From just the physical effect. Conversely, as most all of us know, some individuals have absorbed multiple hits of much larger rounds, that missed the vitals and they kept going. Each handgun shooting is a unique event and there are several different reactions that are possible after the projectile hits. The shooting has to actually happen, to find out how that individual shot/shot at person will react. No mathematical model can predict it either.

...but yeah the .38 Special 158 grain LRN(Lead Round Nose) is the weakest, most ineffective .38 Special SD loading. Thats why I don't carry it.
__________________
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
(>_<)
nate45 is offline  
Old December 5, 2012, 11:22 PM   #29
Sgt127
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 13, 2002
Posts: 616
I bought half a case of Bitterroot Valley .357 Magnum 158 GR Lead semiwadcutter. ITs lopping along at about 1000 fps.

Its a good shooting round that doesn't beat my hands up anymore. I would carry it as a defense round in a second. As a matter of fact, I bought it because I couldn't find the Remington of\r (I think) Whinchester version anymore. Those were going a little faster, but a solid SWC between 800-1100 FPS should serve you well.
Sgt127 is offline  
Old December 6, 2012, 12:53 AM   #30
Nnobby45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,148
Quote:
With cynicism/skepticism being so common these days, it is a pleasant surprise. Sometimes I wonder if the firearms community isn't its own worst enemy for all of the pessimism that seems to pervade these venues
Sorry to be cynical /skeptical, but despite the fact that some have dispatched wounded animals with well placed shots and have all the confidence in the world in certain ammo they've "depended" on for years (but never had to defend themselves with it), the 158 SWC in .38 special is a poor performer compared to 158 +P lead HP. Don't have the source, but I believe RN lead and SWC perform about the same. Yes, lots of people have met their maker after being shot with the round, but rapid incapacitation isn't one of it's virtues.

Nothing wrong with loading up a bunch of SWC's. It would be good ammo in a long term survival situation. Better than nothing for SD. Hunting, trade, barter and, yes, might have to serve as SD, also.
Nnobby45 is offline  
Old December 6, 2012, 01:04 AM   #31
481
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2011
Posts: 469
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nnobby45:
Don't have the source, but I believe RN lead and SWC perform about the same.
I've never argued that either one is the hammer of Thor. In the end, that you hit something important (CNS, major vascualr structure) with a bullet is what matters most.
__________________
My favorite "gun" book -

QUANTITATIVE AMMUNITION SELECTION
481 is offline  
Old December 6, 2012, 04:14 PM   #32
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 1,691
Quote:
Below is a video of a man getting shot in the abdomen with a .38 Special 158 grain lead round nose, standard velocity. It looks like it hurt and it was a fatal injury.

I never said it would not produce a fatal wound. I said it is a dismal stopper. The important thing in context is how fast someone stops trying to kill you. We both agree that this is a poor choice for SD.
__________________
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old December 6, 2012, 04:42 PM   #33
nate45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,746
Right, but lots of people have gotten shot once by it and gone straight down like Oswald did too. Not just from psychological effects, from physical ones. The .38 Special 158 grain LRN is better than .32 ACP FMJ, 146 grain LRN .38 S&W, .380 ACP FMJ, .25 ACP, .22 LR, 9mm FMJ. .45 ACP 230 gr FMJ is only marginally better. If the 158 grain LRN passes through the aorta, spine, brain, it will take someone down just like the best HP bullet.
__________________
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
(>_<)
nate45 is offline  
Old December 6, 2012, 06:11 PM   #34
Nnobby45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,148
Quote:
I've never argued that either one is the hammer of Thor. In the end, that you hit something important (CNS, major vascualr structure) with a bullet is what matters most.
__________________
Cops referred to the 158 RN lead as the widow maker because criminals who were hit in the manner you described were still able to continue fighting--resulting in the death of too many police officers. Yes, that can happen with any ammo, but the RN lead was notorious.

I'll never forget Jim Cirillo's humorous description of an incident while on the stake out squad. The squad was hiding in the back room of a store when one of them was about to take a bite out of a pizza when his eyes got wide and he froze. The place was being robbed. I believe one of the robbers came in the back and fired a shot a close range at one of the officers. They returned fire and hit the perp in the face. DRT, right? Well, Cirillo and the other officer where going thru the hair on the chest of the officer thought shot, like chimps grooming another, looking for the bullet hole that they knew had to be there. It wasn't, the perp had missed. Well, they called in a shooting with perp deceased, but shortly after, the perp started to wake up, sneezed and expelled the bullet that had lodged in his sinus cavity. As Cirillo said, "so much for round nosed lead".

A lot of old timers love the SWC in their revolvers. They penetrate deep and make good hunting ammo on larger game. When Elmer Keith popularized the bullet, HP's really weren't an option. I understand the fondness for the bullet, and sometimes it's hard to let go of tradition. For all around general purpose ammo, it's fine. Specifically for hunting, or just target shooting, it's fine. For the bullet that you'd bet your life on, technology has passed the SWC by, and so have most of us.
Nnobby45 is offline  
Old December 6, 2012, 09:39 PM   #35
481
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2011
Posts: 469
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nnobby45
For the bullet that you'd bet your life on, technology has passed the SWC by, and so have most of us.
Good for you, dude, but you are preaching to the choir.
__________________
My favorite "gun" book -

QUANTITATIVE AMMUNITION SELECTION
481 is offline  
Old December 6, 2012, 09:45 PM   #36
Camar
Member
 
Join Date: December 13, 2011
Posts: 38
Meplate, Meplate, Meplate! This is what it is all about. I use 173gr. LSWC for my .38 spl. and .357's. Never been didappointed with the results.
Camar is offline  
Old December 6, 2012, 10:07 PM   #37
jhenry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2006
Location: Ozarks
Posts: 1,813
Out of the possible choices I rank the 158 LRN right behind the foolish 130 grain FMJ as poor choices. Either can certainly prove fatal, and even immediately fatal, but other choices are better by far. I have no earthly idea why anyone would opt for one of those two if they had any other choice.
__________________
"A Liberal is someone who doesn't care what you do, as long as it's mandatory". - Charles Krauthammer
jhenry is offline  
Old December 7, 2012, 06:41 PM   #38
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 1,691
Quote:
Right, but lots of people have gotten shot once by it and gone straight down like Oswald did too. Not just from psychological effects, from physical ones.
I never said people did not go down when shot with LRN, I am saying there are WAY batter choices - anything.

Quote:
The .38 Special 158 grain LRN is better than .32 ACP FMJ, 146 grain LRN .38 S&W, .380 ACP FMJ, .25 ACP, .22 LR, 9mm FMJ. .45 ACP 230 gr FMJ is only marginally better. If the 158 grain LRN passes through the aorta, spine, brain, it will take someone down just like the best HP bullet.
IF, the bullet took that path you would be correct. The problem is that bullets are unpredictable once the hit anything. The bullet must still have energy to do work once it gets there, the LRN fired from a snubby at about 700 FPS does not have it. If the LRN and WC was so effective why has all of the work gone into making better bullets? A Federal HST or a Barnes DPX is so much better you cannot even compare them. If limited to standard pressure 38 Special the best choice is a 158 grain LSWC, at those velocities you will get little deformation even from soft lead.
__________________
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old December 7, 2012, 09:09 PM   #39
nate45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,746
Penetration is very important, probably why the .38 Special high speed LRN and SWC were better performers than the standard velocity.

Back when I carried a Model 36 S&W in an ankle holster as a BUG to my 1911. I had it loaded with +P+ 158 grain LSWC-HP. I never had to use it, but I figured those would be almost as good as my 1000 fps 200 grain SWC's that were in my .45 ACP.
__________________
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
(>_<)
nate45 is offline  
Old December 7, 2012, 09:33 PM   #40
jmortimer
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2010
Location: South West Riverside County California
Posts: 2,763
" If the LRN and WC was so effective why has all of the work gone into making better bullets? A Federal HST or a Barnes DPX is so much better you cannot even compare them."

For two, or more reasons. First JHPs have a checkered past and expansion issues. Even today, JHPs have expansion issues when shooting through barriers and bone. So evolution is necessary. Second, the bullets you list as the ne plus ultra really do not penetrate deeply, hitting the bottom end of the FBI protocol in ballistic gelatin. A soft lead wadcutter with a maximum meplat will plow through over 12 inches of ballistic gelatin. A hard cast 150 grain standard pressure wadcutter from Buffalo Bore in a J Frame will blow through two feet of ballistic gelatin. So, the wadcutter gives us a maximum meplat, low recoil, inherent accuracy, and fantastic/incredible straight-line penetration. In a J Frame or LCR you can't expect much more than that.
jmortimer is offline  
Old December 7, 2012, 11:19 PM   #41
481
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2011
Posts: 469
That about says it all, jmortimer. Well said.
__________________
My favorite "gun" book -

QUANTITATIVE AMMUNITION SELECTION
481 is offline  
Old December 8, 2012, 01:53 AM   #42
warningshot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 7, 2009
Posts: 995
Speaking of, People-Believe-What-They-Want-To-Believe...

Why is it some radio hosts make millions of dollars convincing listeners about invisible spaceships randomly circling the earth for reasons unknown? And yet others appear dubious about the effectiveness of well-placed 850 feet per second 158 swcs based on years of 1st hand experience? The world wonders.
warningshot is offline  
Old December 8, 2012, 03:48 PM   #43
Old Grump
Member in memoriam
 
Join Date: April 9, 2009
Location: Blue River Wisconsin, in
Posts: 3,144
point goes to jmortimer.

Dead deer is dead and I have eaten a lot of them. Farthest shot was 135 yards, only deer I ever had to shoot twice, all others have been between 100 and 60 yards and if they were inadequately killed you can't prove it by me. Farthest deer was also my first deer and I was too eager, I have calmed down a lot since that deer. JSP and LSWC are the only two I ever used, still have commercial JSP's but all my loading is with LSWC.
__________________
Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern will, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.
--Daniel Webster--
Old Grump is offline  
Old December 8, 2012, 04:06 PM   #44
dahermit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 28, 2006
Location: South Central Michigan...near Ohio, Indiana.
Posts: 3,505
Quote:
Quote:
Below is a video of a man getting shot in the abdomen with a .38 Special 158 grain lead round nose, standard velocity. It looks like it hurt and it was a fatal injury.
Quote:
I never said it would not produce a fatal wound. I said it is a dismal stopper. The important thing in context is how fast someone stops trying to kill you. We both agree that this is a poor choice for SD.
Being old enough, and having an unusually good memory, to remember this, Oswald was unlucky enough to have several vital organs hit with that single bullet. A statement made at the time was, "...hit every major organ in his body...", was somewhat of an exaggeration, but nevertheless enough organs were hit that his death was a certainty from the time he was hit. Most gunshot wounds would not have hit so many vital organs.
__________________
Sometimes you get what you pay for, sometimes you only pay more for what you get.
Three shots are not a "group"...they are a "few".

If the Bible is the literal, infallible, unerring word of God...where are all those witches I am supposed to kill?
dahermit is offline  
Old December 9, 2012, 12:57 PM   #45
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 1,691
JMortimer,

Everything you say is gospel according to the book of Fackler and Roberts, nothing new. My point is that what I have seen on the street with real people shot with these bullets are less than stellar. The hardcast WC loaded hotter than the target WC may be very effective, but I do not carry nor recommend such a low powered load +/- 200 FPE.
__________________
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old December 9, 2012, 03:14 PM   #46
tipoc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2004
Location: Redwood City, Ca.
Posts: 2,389
Back to the op...

Quote:
We were discussing emergency preparedness, food storage, and of course stocking up of ammunition. We debated this question: As a last ditch effort, would a .36 caliber, 158 grain, semi-wadcutter, traveling at 830-850 FPS, hitting center-mass, be effective as a self-defense round?
For hunting small game, as you already know, this can be an effective choice. Depending on the blend of bullet you can have a softer lead that deforms more easily or something a bit harder that breaks denser bone. Depending on the size of game

You didn't mention the length of barrel. That is a factor. From a 2" barrel 850 fps with a 158 gr. pill is a stout load. You can get more from 4 or 6" if desired with the same 158 gr.

For self defense a 158 gr. +P swchp is a round I have some confidence in. I'll go as low as 140 gr. in the same configuration. The weight aids in penetration and if they open, or deform, good. If they do not open you have a bit more weight to help things along. From a 4 or 6" barrel the .38 Pl. can get to over 1000 fps and still be comfortable and accurate to shoot with a 158 gr. lswchp.

Lighter weight bullets like the 110 and 125 gr. jhp rounds, I have less confidence in. Though they can be a bit faster I've seen them deflect a bit easier. Their expansion, meaning at what point they expand, if they do, is a bit less reliable in my limited experience then lswchp. Their point of impact versus point of aim is also a tad lower in fixed sight guns.

tipoc

Last edited by tipoc; December 9, 2012 at 03:21 PM.
tipoc is offline  
Old December 9, 2012, 03:48 PM   #47
tipoc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2004
Location: Redwood City, Ca.
Posts: 2,389
The picture above of Oswald getting hit with the lrn bullet speaks more to the importance of shot placement then anything else I think. Often the old lrn police bullets barely broke 700 fps from 4" guns.

I'm leery of trying to draw widespread conclusions based on reports of handgun stops from torso shots. The round that hit Oswald destroyed several vital organs. Other fellas have been shot in non vital locations but dropped to the ground as readily. Both are "one shot stops" and counted to attest to the ability of one brand of bullet versus another. Hard to rely on that.

Most useful I think is to picked a good and reliable bullet, match it to the job at hand, and practice. Good shot placement makes up for alot.

tipoc
tipoc is offline  
Old December 9, 2012, 07:20 PM   #48
Doc TH
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 15, 2005
Posts: 508
Southern Shooter, the short answer to your question is that round will do just fine w. acceptable shot placement.
Doc TH is offline  
Old December 9, 2012, 11:46 PM   #49
dahermit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 28, 2006
Location: South Central Michigan...near Ohio, Indiana.
Posts: 3,505
My short answer to your question is: No handgun and load is going to be as effective as a shotgun. Therefore, do not depend on, or expect any handgun to stop a human attacker, load them down with as many bullets as you have got in the gun...double-tap, triple-tap, quadruple-tap, till empty.
__________________
Sometimes you get what you pay for, sometimes you only pay more for what you get.
Three shots are not a "group"...they are a "few".

If the Bible is the literal, infallible, unerring word of God...where are all those witches I am supposed to kill?
dahermit is offline  
Old December 10, 2012, 03:16 AM   #50
mrt949
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 16, 2008
Posts: 1,465
Back in the 1980's .Had some WADCUTER AMMO loaded with the hollow base facing forward impresive to say the least.
mrt949 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:10 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13765 seconds with 7 queries