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Old November 8, 2012, 10:59 PM   #1
Pfletch83
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The Smallbore Defensive Shotgun

The .410 shotgun is a great defensive tool,the gauge/caliber can be used by anyone that can shoulder a long arm.

The ammo situation is being cleared up due to the handguns that have arrived on the market.

The .410 guns are light weight and have a low recoil.

Ammo is also lacking in the weight and bulk area,which allows for more shells to be carried for the same weight as larger gauge guns.

The payload is small but is still capable of putting down a two legged threat and is nothing to sneeze at.

For those that are new to shotgunning I would recommend a .410,not only because of the low recoil,but because the limited ammount of shot will force the shooter to practice more and in turn become a better shotgunner with the heavy hitters on down the line.


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Old November 9, 2012, 01:13 AM   #2
jmortimer
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000 buckshot and the Brenneke slug will smoke just about anything short of large/dangerous game. 800 plus ft lbs
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Old November 9, 2012, 01:55 AM   #3
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That depends on what you mean by "putting down" a threat. Many would say that a heavier load is more likely to not just stop but to end a thret by rendering a bg incapable of getting off return fire I suppose a .410 has its place as a defensive weapon and especially if one is physicly unable to handle someting larger, but it wouldn't be my choice.

Actually, I am supposed to take my daughter to the range this weekend and plan on renting her a semi-auto 20 gauge. Recoil aside, I don't think she could handle the weight of my 12 gauge Citori with 30 inch barrels and a fixed breech.

If I want to force myself to better center my hits with the 12, I can easily use a tight choke or even mimic a 28 gauge by loading 3/4 ouncers. But should I have to ever take care of business, I want the 12 gauge load.

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Old November 9, 2012, 03:45 AM   #4
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To each their own,just remember that it isn't the gauge of the gun but the shooter using it.
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Old November 9, 2012, 06:31 AM   #5
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I don't think a .410 shotgun is a good choice for a new shotgunner.

I would say the small payload and expensive ammo are more likely to cause discouragement and less practice, resulting in lesser proficiency.

You can make a reasonable argument for using a smaller gauge shotgun for defense, but it doesn't mean you have to go all the way.
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Old November 9, 2012, 10:08 AM   #6
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The O/P is right. Here is Brass Fetcher video and the Winchester five 000 Buckshot blows right through 12" of ballistic gelatin -very impressive and in fact it will do 20" so it slightly exceeds the maximum FBI standard:
http://brassfetcher.com/index_files/410BoreShotgun.htm
Here is article from mcb-homis web site entitled "The Brenneke 410 Silver Slug
Why this Slug is my favorite 410 slug commercially available." The Brenneke will out penetrate standard 10mm ammunition - it is "enough gun" with around 900 ft lbs and at short range in a home will, again, smoke any intruder as will the 5 ooo buckshot loads:
http://mcb-homis.com/bren/bren.htm
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Old November 9, 2012, 11:29 AM   #7
Pfletch83
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.410 ammo isn't as costly as it was a few years ago.

I would actually like to try a 28 gauge with the same setup.
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Old November 9, 2012, 12:52 PM   #8
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Quote:
The payload is small but is still capable of putting down a two legged threat and is nothing to sneeze at.
It may not be anything to sneeze at and it may be capable of putting down a two legged threat, but what is more likely to put an instant end to any threat; a 12 or a .410 given similar munitions? It is really that simple.

The closest test I know of is this one from the box of truth, and it isn't totally analagous due to it neing with a Taurus Judge and barrel length being a factor in creating velocity. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm

I would add that some are concerned with over penetration and collateral damage. Ask yourelf how much energy is delivered on target by 9 pieces of lead compared to 3, with both loads having the same total mass. I believe it is approximately the same. One difference is that if one of the 3 oversize pieces misses it is more likely to go through a wall and hit your neighbor. If one or more smaller pieces miss they are less likely to have the energy to reach the neighbor and if they did reserve energy is likely to be minimal.

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Old November 9, 2012, 12:58 PM   #9
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^ This logic dictates that a 10 gauge would be even better. Why do people choose a 9mm when the 10mm is far "better." Dead is dead. Once you hit a minimum level, more is not necessarily better at close range. Five 000 buckshot loads that go 20" inches in ballistic gelatin are plenty good enough. 800 to 900 ft lbs of energy is plenty at close home defense range of 7 to 10 yards.
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Old November 9, 2012, 01:03 PM   #10
Pfletch83
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Either one if the user can keep their head and shoot straight.

For home defense #4 Buck in any gauge is a good load.
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Old November 9, 2012, 01:57 PM   #11
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Quote:
Either one if the user can keep their head and shoot straight.
I thought we were talking about home defense use. Most users of home defense weapons are not professionals and are more likely to feel the pressure of any encounter with an intruder, which is likely to be in the middle of the night. Hence, they are better off with with a weapon that is more forgiving of less than perfect straight shooting.
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Old November 9, 2012, 02:09 PM   #12
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The question is the adequacy of a .410 for home defenses and you have to bring up 10 gauges, 9mm and 10mm. As for the 10, at some point, anyone recognizes that there is such a thing as overkill, but in some situations I suppose one would wish thay had a 10. I am no handgun shooter, but believe the reason some choose the 10mm over the 9mm is knockdown power. Would you advocate the use of a .22 short for HD over a 9mm? You can put the intruder down with a .22 if you shoot straight and keep your cool.
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Old November 9, 2012, 03:57 PM   #13
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The .410 load is nothing to sneeze at, and I'd use it if I really disliked 12-gauge recoil. But people more knowledgeable than I say that the only sure way to stop a conflict immediately is with a hit to the CNS. #1 buck reliably penetrates deep enough to hit vitals, and 15 of them can be packed into a standard 12-gauge shell. This basically triples my chances of hitting the CNS with a COM hit as compared to the 5-pellet .410 load.

That's not to say the .410 is a bad choice, but for a lot of people, it's not a better choice.


As for the 9mm to 10mm analogy, I understand that there can be such a thing as too much gun for some people. And if a .410 is what a person can comfortably handle, that's fine. But I believe the other factor in that equation is cost of ammo/practice. I suspect if 10mm ammo were as cheap as 9mm ammo, a lot more people would be using the bigger gun.

Among shotguns, the bigger 12 or 20-gauges are already cheaper to shoot than the .410.

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Old November 9, 2012, 04:17 PM   #14
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The .410 has a lower recoil and can help in fast follow up shots due to a faster recovery rate.
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Old November 9, 2012, 04:39 PM   #15
idek
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Quote:
The .410 has a lower recoil and can help in fast follow up shots due to a faster recovery rate.
I don't think anyone will argue with you on that point. They may argue that a .410 could likely require you to take more follow up shots that you would if you used a 12-gauge instead.
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Old November 9, 2012, 04:55 PM   #16
Pfletch83
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They can argue that point if they want,but I'll reply with "a hit with a .22 is always better than a miss with a .45"

The .410 doesn't cost as much as folks say,sure the prices are high for anything these days but it's no worse than buying ammo for other firearms.

.45 Colt costs more than .410 ammo but people still use the .45 and reload for it.
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Old November 9, 2012, 06:05 PM   #17
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Quote:
TheKlawMan originally wrote: I thought we were talking about home defense use. Most users of home defense weapons are not professionals and are more likely to feel the pressure of any encounter with an intruder, which is likely to be in the middle of the night. Hence, they are better off with with a weapon that is more forgiving of less than perfect straight shooting.
At house hold distances, the patterning differences between any of the gauges / bores is insignificant. At 7 yards (maximum distance in most households) we are talking fist sized at worst with cylinder bore choke.

In the case of a 410 vs. 12 gauge and 000 Buck a 410 is 1/2 of a 12 gauge; 3" load vs. 3" load with the velocity difference being within 100 fps. A single CoM hit with a 410 will certainly be a game changer in all but the most statistically insignificant of cases. And as far as the most statistically insignificant of cases, a 12 gauge would also probably fail too.

A small of stature or physical ability limited person confident with a 410 and proper ammo is well if not better served than the same person afraid of or unable to handle the kick of a 12 gauge. I know a man who has Brittle Bone Disease. He is confined to a wheel chair, short of stature and physically limited. He absolutely can not fire a 12 gauge without causing physical damage to himself. A short youth 410 with a 2 1/2" shell is within his limitations as well as a 380 pistol. Mobility issues aside, he is able to use 'marginal weapons' effectively for defense of himself and his wife. God have mercy on the scum sucking vermin that invades his home.
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Old November 9, 2012, 07:08 PM   #18
Pfletch83
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Also let it be known that I recommend the 3-inch #4 buck for a reason.

The 2-1/2 '000' load from a shotgun barrel has too much punch and would most likely be a shoot through of the bg,The #4 Buck has less of a chance of a complete pass through,the full choke barrels found on most single shot and pump/auto loaders holds a tight pattern.

The '000' load is best used say at inside the front/back yard distances from a Modified-Cylinder choke shotgun.
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Old November 9, 2012, 07:17 PM   #19
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It isn't just patterning differences, but the number of individual hits with individual wound channels. Given that both shots are on the money, the 12 will have two to three times that of the .410. That increases the likelihood of instantly decommissioning a BG.

You forget overpenetration. One reason for using shotgun pellets is to avoid shooting through a bg or walls and into whomever may be beyond.

No one is saying that a .410 is not a good option for those with unique physical demands.

If anyone wants to continue to trumpet the .4i0's superiority over the 12, please talk about what law enforcement agencies prefer.
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Old November 9, 2012, 07:26 PM   #20
Pfletch83
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I wasn't talking about law enforcement,but if you want to go there.

How many police officers are issued AR-15's now?

I mean sure the 12 is still around but what are some of the reasons shotguns have been falling out of favor with Police forces?

I'll wait for your reply.
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Old November 9, 2012, 08:02 PM   #21
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Not to be rude, but officers utilize a myriad of weapons such as rifles, handguns, shotguns, and tasers. This is a shotgun forum and the thread is about shotguns so try to stick on point.

I will say that the AR-15 is the go to weapon for certain tasks, but for some it is the shotgun. Often an officer with one will work in a team with an officer with the other.

The fact is that law enforcement's overwhelming choice of shotguns is the 12 gauge.
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Old November 9, 2012, 08:32 PM   #22
Pfletch83
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But were we talking about Law Enforcement in the first place?

We were talking about shotguns in the home for self defense use by a non governmental (heavy on the 'Mental' in some cases) employed citizen.


Also with a new upper and magazine an AR-15 can be turned into a shotgun (it is a Modular weapons system after all )
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Old November 9, 2012, 09:33 PM   #23
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This is going no where and I don't wish to be rude to you. Bye
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Old November 10, 2012, 06:40 AM   #24
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I really have a hard time wrapping my head around the new idea that the .410 is a great defensive round. No doubt it will work, but so will a pointy stick. The #1 rule of any defensive gun should be "practice". If you can afford to run a couple hundred of those exotic .410 rounds thru your weapon every couple of months then more power to you. And the arguement "a hit with a 22 beats a miss with a .45" is pretty well countered by "a hit with a 45 beats a hit with a .22".
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Old November 10, 2012, 10:26 AM   #25
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Once again I ask, how is 800 to 900 ft lbs of 5 000 buckshot pellets not going to smoke an intruder. It will penetrate 20" of ballistic gelatin which is technically too much gun in a home but the FBI 19" max is close enough. The Brenneke slug will out penetrate a 10mm HP with about 900 ft lbs of energy. When did 000 buckshot or Brenneke slugs become exotic? This is crazy talk. If you watch the video I linked above and you see five Winchester 000 buckshot balls blow right through 12" of ballistic gelatin like it was nothing then and you still think a .410 won't work then you had better contact the FBI and tell them that you are a ballistics savant and they have it all wrong and need you to "learn them" on ballistics.
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