The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Dave McCracken Memorial Shotgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 9, 2013, 05:04 PM   #1
Firefighter88
Member
 
Join Date: July 3, 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 71
Advice for beginning clay gun

Was thinking of buying a shotgun for my wife. I figured something in .28 gauge but up for suggestions. I want a sporting clay type gun, possibly trap. She has experience with a few of my pistols, but really no shotgun experience, hence the need for a new gun. Any personal experience and suggestions welcome. Basically I have no, I need it to be like 'this' or this type kind of starting point. As far as budget, I'm still a bit shy of my dream citori 725, so budget is limited but no need to keep that in mind, any and all ideas will be considered and helpful. Thanks!
__________________
Amateurs practice until they get it right. Professionals practice until they don't get it wrong.
Firefighter88 is offline  
Old May 9, 2013, 06:54 PM   #2
BigD_in_FL
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2012
Location: The "Gunshine State"
Posts: 1,981
IMO, the best inexpensive 28 gauge suitable for targets is the Remington 1100. The heavier frame, gas action and nice recoil pad will work wonders - I had one for a long time and put a lot of rounds through it.

You WILL want to reload 28 gauge as the factory ammo is expensive, but it is a great bore size and will do just fine for 16 yard trap, skeet, 5-stand and a lot of the sporting clays presentations

Last edited by BigD_in_FL; May 9, 2013 at 07:58 PM. Reason: spelling
BigD_in_FL is offline  
Old May 9, 2013, 06:56 PM   #3
NoSecondBest
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 7, 2009
Location: Western New York
Posts: 850
Don't go with a small gauge. No reason to. For a very good intro gun, in fact an all time gun, a good gas auto would be my first recommendation. One ounce loads out of a gas gun have very, very little recoil and she'll break a lot more birds with it. I'd suggest a Beretta target model. They can be adjusted to fit, have a five choke selection with the gun, and are the most popular gun on the clays course for a very good reason. Quality, fit, function, and performance.
NoSecondBest is offline  
Old May 9, 2013, 07:16 PM   #4
Firefighter88
Member
 
Join Date: July 3, 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 71
My only concern with a semi-auto is the ease of making the gun safe in-between stations. When a double barrel is broke open, everyone can tell it is safe. A pump action people usually pull action to the rear. So I figure a semi-auto, they just activate the safety switch? Which to me is simple and I practice regularly with all my guns.(I actually don't own a semi-auto shotgun, but anyway). But my wife however is a true beginner, so lots of practice and teaching is involved, which I like and any time spent at the range and with my wife is enjoyable, but it is just something on my mind. Am I over thinking? I just want things to be simple so she enjoys it as much as I do. I very strongly practice safety, especially when dealing with firearms, but just have to tippy toe so to speak into this adventure so she doesn't get overwhelmed and decide she don't want to go through the 'trouble'...you know what I mean, sorry for rambling, just having trouble getting to my point and trying to get what's in my head into something understandable. I was originally thinking of a semi-auto, until my mind started analyzing the details.
__________________
Amateurs practice until they get it right. Professionals practice until they don't get it wrong.
Firefighter88 is offline  
Old May 9, 2013, 08:04 PM   #5
BigD_in_FL
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2012
Location: The "Gunshine State"
Posts: 1,981
With a semi you leave the bolt locked back until you get to the next station.

Since the 1100 is built on a 20 frame, it has the weight to mitigate recoil
A gas gun does NOT reduce actual recoil. It can reduce felt recoil, IF it fits.

Actual recoil is a math calculation in which the gun action is irrelevant. Heavy gun plus light load equal low recoil - that's Newton
A gas gun spreads the peak recoil pulse out over a few more milliseconds so it tends to "feel" softer than an O/U or pump, but if it is a lighter gun than the pump or O/U, it will actually have MORE recoil.

FIT is crucial, ESPECIALLY for a woman. Fit is a lot more than LOP, it involves drop at heel, drop at comb, pitch, toe in or out, cast, etc. Women, especially those well-endowed have another issue we guys do not when it comes to fit
BigD_in_FL is offline  
Old May 9, 2013, 08:18 PM   #6
Firefighter88
Member
 
Join Date: July 3, 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 71
BigDinFL:

Is there a considerable difference between the recoil of a 28 gauge vs a 20 gauge? I need to have her shoot to see what she can handle. I have access to a 20 gauge, but not a 28...just wondering, I haven't ever fired a 28 gauge.
__________________
Amateurs practice until they get it right. Professionals practice until they don't get it wrong.
Firefighter88 is offline  
Old May 9, 2013, 08:22 PM   #7
Virginian-in-LA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 11, 2012
Location: Evangeline, LA
Posts: 761
A gas semi auto like an 1100 does reduce actual peak recoil force and felt recoil by virtue of how the gas action works. It spreads out the forces. In order to accelerate the bolt and action bar mechanism to the rear, it applies a forward force to the rest of the gun. Eventually of course Newton's laws must be satisfied, but it is the easiest way on the shooter.
If you get a good used name brand semi auto - Beretta, Remington, Browning, a newer Winchester - and take decent care of it, you will not lose a dime if you/she decides she wants something else later is another factor to consider. And she may love it. I do not like O/Us, and I have been shooting everything for 50 years with 1100s. I have also owned lots of other shotguns, but the 1100 is my personal choice.
Virginian-in-LA is offline  
Old May 9, 2013, 08:23 PM   #8
Firefighter88
Member
 
Join Date: July 3, 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 71
Also, I do not currently reload. I have looked at the MEC reloader and want one, but that may be down the road a bit, so that could affect my choice. Ultimately, I want what is best for her, regardless of the price of shells. Maybe by the time we start shooting more often, I will have learned how to reload.
__________________
Amateurs practice until they get it right. Professionals practice until they don't get it wrong.
Firefighter88 is offline  
Old May 9, 2013, 08:24 PM   #9
BigD_in_FL
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2012
Location: The "Gunshine State"
Posts: 1,981
A typical 20 gauge load is 7/8 oz; the 28 is 3/4

using a recoil calculator with the following assumptions:
gun weighs 7 pounds
velocity for both is 1200 fps
powder charge is 16 grains, and
wad weighs 45 grains
we get 12.4 for the 28 and 15.7 for the 20

which is a 26.6% increase in recoil

something to think about.

IF you reload, you can reload a 20 down to 3/4oz levels - I do exactly that with both 12 and 20 for practice to save money and recoil - so that is a consideration
BigD_in_FL is offline  
Old May 10, 2013, 08:35 AM   #10
NoSecondBest
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 7, 2009
Location: Western New York
Posts: 850
Don't get over fixated on the math. One ounce of shot is one ounce of shot whether it's coming out of a 20ga or a 12ga. I think you'd be well advised to go to a range and ask some of the shooters if your wife could try out a couple of guns. I shoot at a lot of ranges and I can tell you for a fact that they'd be tripping over themselves to help out. Shooters just seem to love helping new shooters. She can try out a couple of different guns and get some real life experience with a good variety. We have a lot of women shooters at the ranges I frequent. Almost all of them shoot 12ga and many, many of them are petite women who do it with no trouble at all. Some of them are very, very good shots. About half use O/U and the other half use gas guns. Skip all the math on here and just go and try out some different guns and loads.
NoSecondBest is offline  
Old May 10, 2013, 11:27 AM   #11
BigD_in_FL
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2012
Location: The "Gunshine State"
Posts: 1,981
Quote:
One ounce of shot is one ounce of shot whether it's coming out of a 20ga or a 12ga.
Maybe so, but if the 20 weighs a pound less - as is typical - then the recoil will be a LOT more than with a 12
BigD_in_FL is offline  
Old May 10, 2013, 02:19 PM   #12
BigJimP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 23, 2005
Posts: 11,361
If you're not reloading.....then stay with a 12ga or a 20ga....whether you go with a semi-auto or not / ammo in a 28ga is too expensive if you shoot it much at all.

Like others said ....weight of the gun is a big factor in recoil reduction ( 1 lb of gun weight reduces recoil about 20% )...so often shooting a 12ga gun around 8.5 lbs vs a 20ga gun around 7.5 lbs ( and then shoot 7/8 oz loads at 1150 fps in the 12ga ) makes the 12ga way softer to shoot.

There is no question that a gas operated semi-auto will be the softest shooting gun out there vs a fixed breech gun ( like a Citori 725, or a pump gun). There are also some Inertia operated semi-autos out there.

I've worked with new shooters ...my grandkids, etc...and as all new shooters work into these clay target games. Part of the issue on what gun works for them - regardless of the gague - is how much upper body strength they have. Young shooters - develop differently ( one season they can't handle a shotgun over 6 lbs ...then they grow and move right into a gun at 7.5 lbs or 8.5 lbs.../ I judge gun weight on whether they can shoot at a pair of targets in the air at once....make a move on one target / come back after the other target without dropping the gun away from their shoulder or face - then they can handle that weight ).

Some options....

Browning Silver Micro semi-auto ( 20ga 6 lbs or so )
http://www.browning.com/products/cat...id=011&tid=375

Browning silver Hunter semi-auto .... 12 or 20ga ...6.5 lbs or so .../
http://www.browning.com/products/cat...id=011&tid=350

overall length, length of pull -- etc are different on the 2 models / and they're affordable entry level guns.
------------
Browning does make some shorter and lighter O/U's ....and some in 28ga and .410 as well...( I have Citori XS Skeet models -- all individual stand alone guns - in 12ga, 20ga, 28ga and .410 ) - where the 28ga and .410 were made by Browning on the 20ga receiver with 30" barrels, etc ...( making my 20ga, 28ga and .410's basically identical )...

You can also buy the Browning BPS ( pump gun ) Hunter model in a 28ga ....as well as 12ga and 20ga and .410 ...but I think a fixed breech gun, like a pump gun, is a bad idea for a clays gun for a new shooter...unless its an adult male. Not that pump guns can't be shot very well...even at pairs of targets ...but it takes more training / and the recoil is higher on fixed breech guns ( pumps or O/U's ).
BigJimP is offline  
Old May 10, 2013, 04:05 PM   #13
Firefighter88
Member
 
Join Date: July 3, 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 71
I failed to mention an important detail that slipped my mind. She is left handed and wants a left handed shotgun, so it needs to be available in a left handed model. So far really good info, thanks.
__________________
Amateurs practice until they get it right. Professionals practice until they don't get it wrong.
Firefighter88 is offline  
Old May 10, 2013, 04:33 PM   #14
BigJimP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 23, 2005
Posts: 11,361
Dedicated Left handed shotguns - are not easy to come by !!

The biggest issue for a "leftie" is not picking a gun that has cast on the stock - suited more to a right handed shooter ...or a gun like a Citori XS Skeet model - that has a palm swell in the grip area for a rightie....

If the gun is "cast neutral" ....and a lot of the Hunter models are...then they should be fine. She will usually adapt very quickly to manipulating the action as a leftie.

But there are some dedicated left handed models out there from Beretta, Benelli, etc...that you can check out.
BigJimP is offline  
Old May 10, 2013, 05:08 PM   #15
BigD_in_FL
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2012
Location: The "Gunshine State"
Posts: 1,981
I am LH and used the RH 1100 in 28 for many years - it isn't a big deal; but if she wants a LH semi, there is the Benelli, but that is NOT a gas gun, so the recoil will be more. You might find a LH Remington, but they are scarce.
That leaves you looking more at over unders that are cast neutral at least, and maybe a LH version - but your budget is going to be increased
BigD_in_FL is offline  
Old May 10, 2013, 06:20 PM   #16
BigJimP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 23, 2005
Posts: 11,361
I bought a Browning Silver Hunter....as a college graduation present for one of the grandkids a few months ago... he's a leftie.....and that gun is cast neutral ...and had no palm swell on it. At $ 950 or so, I thought it was a pretty good value / and still a good solid long term gun for him. I know he wanted a Benelli Super Sport 12ga - but they're up around $ 1,900 now...( and with my 11th grandchild on the way next month, I didn't want to start that tradition ...)...so the Silver Hunter fit the criteria a little better...

The Silver Hunter is very light ...and easy to handle...just a hair over 7 lbs in a 12ga with a 28" barrel .....and I think the 20ga version is about 1 lb lighter --- but very soft shooting guns.

Either of them - I think, would be a good gun for a new shooter - leftie or rightie. They have an alloy receiver so they're a little lighter for a new shooter.
--------------
I've also bought a few of the Browning BPS Hunter models as well ( about $600 new ) - as gifts for some of the younger grandkids ( but most of them are "big" kids like me...)...and the BPS fits lefties and right handed shooters really well ....they eject out of the bottom, cast neutral, safety is on top of the tang so it doesn't favor a right handed shooter at all .....but recoil on the BPS is more than she probably wants.
-------------
Now a "smart man" ....would take their wife to a good gunstore...and let her pick her own gun !!! I might buy a Silver Hunter in a 26" or 28" ...and tell her ( free exchange ...! ) if she didn't like it...so she had a present to unwrap - if that's important to you. But if I were you - I'd take her to a good shop ....and let her pick her own gun ! --- and buy it / regardless of what it costs ( just keep her in the Beretta and Browning sections ) and out of the Kolars and Krieghoffs and you'll probably be ok !
BigJimP is offline  
Old May 10, 2013, 07:38 PM   #17
LSnSC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 5, 2010
Posts: 514
The Beretta semiautos are adjustable for cast and drop. You just flip the shim and stock washer to go from cast on to cast off. They are IMO the best shotguns to start a new shooter with.

I have been an NSCA instuctor and a youth shooting coach for about 5 years. With proper training safety with a semiauto is no different than a break action shotgun. With a new shooter I control the ammo. I have it in my pouch and hand them one or two at a time depending on what we are working on. The action is open going into the box and out, and stays that way until they go back in the box at the next station.

Tomorrow is the South Carolina Youth Shooting Foundation Sporting Clays Champoinship. We will have almost 500 shooters attending from grades 5 through 12. EVERY one of those kids will have their actions open until they are in the shooting box and ready to call for their birds. It will be open with the safety on. Thats how they have been trained. If a child can be trained to handle a semiauto safely, there is no reason whatsoever for an adult cant.
LSnSC is offline  
Old May 11, 2013, 07:29 AM   #18
Husqvarna
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 7, 2012
Location: Sweden
Posts: 569
As a lh shooter donot settle for a neutral or rh shotgun! You won,t get the right teqnique Down.
Husqvarna is offline  
Old May 15, 2013, 01:12 PM   #19
klb1217
Junior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2013
Posts: 9
FWIW from a female perspective --

I have tried many of the guns that the guys shoot at the trap range I go to. Berettas, Remingtons, Brownings, semi-autos, O/Us, single shot, etc. I finally made a decision as to the one I like best. The two I was most comfortable with were the BT-99 and the Remington 1100 Classic Trap. Keep in mind that these both have a standard LOP of about 14-1/2". I went with the BT-99 Micro, which has a shorter LOP. It is a single shot break open, 12 gauge, 30" barrel length. Love the BT-99! the O/U's that I tried were just too "top" heavy and my left arm got tired really fast.

As far as gauge, she will do fine with 12 gauge. I was concerned about the recoil before I tried it, and it was not a big deal. As long as the gun is mounted properly (ie, make sure it's in the "pocket" and not on the collar bone...) the recoil is not bad at all. Granted, it's not like shooting my Henry Frontier .22 rifle, but it didn't kick my a** like I was anticipating.

The only issue with the BT-99 is that it is specifically a TRAP gun. Which means that if I ever want to shoot doubles, skeet, five stand, etc. I will need another gun. Darn! Having already been bitten by the GAS bug, I already pretty much know what my next one will be - the Browning Silver Sporting or the Remington 1100 Sporting... or maybe a Beretta. See the problem with GAS?
klb1217 is offline  
Old May 17, 2013, 06:26 AM   #20
Scottish Highlander
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 1, 2013
Posts: 113
+1 for post 10

I've handled shotguns for the last 25 years plus. Everything from a 410 , 16 bore, 20 bore and 12s. I have settled on the 20 bore and I recently bought a Browning 525 sporting gun. I've shot a lot with 12 bores and personally if your shooting a lot in a morning and we all do every now and again, not quite have our cheek on the stock perfectly. A 12 will thump you far harder than a 20 will...

To add to the mix my dad bought a benelli 3 shot pump action when I got my new gun and I had a shot of it. It has a recoil compensation device in the action and that is why he got it because he has a bad shoulder. When I fired it at some clay's I absolutely hated the thing. When you fire it there's a clunk....clunk from the mechanism and I found it very off putting..... just my 2 cents
Scottish Highlander is offline  
Old May 17, 2013, 09:17 AM   #21
BigD_in_FL
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2012
Location: The "Gunshine State"
Posts: 1,981
Quote:
A 12 will thump you far harder than a 20 will...
Not necessarily - as 12 is typically 1-2 pounds heavier than a 20 - shooting loads that are the same, the 20 will thump you more
BigD_in_FL is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:24 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12334 seconds with 9 queries