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Old December 3, 2012, 07:51 AM   #26
Constantine
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That's hilarious how this thread just came up. I've been having this mental struggle for the last few months. Between my Glocks and my 1911's and SIG's.

Had a recent issue with my Glock 19 so I've been carrying my SIG 1911 xo because it has been flawless with over 700+ rounds. JHP/FMJ's both.

But even before that. I can't get the feel of plastic in my hands to be as mentally satisfying, and quenching to my needs as I can with a steel/aluminum framed gun.

Right when I switched over from my Glock 19 malfunctioning after carrying it exclusively for 6-7 months, I felt much more serious and as if a void was getting filled that I didn't know I had when I put that P226 or 1911 on me (right now it's the 1911, I also have .45 vs 9mm moods


However in the accuracy department. I don't see much difference. Other than felt recoil. That's so minimal it's probably not even worth speaking off. I shoot mainly 9mm and .45 anyways.

Recoil does count for accuracy as well as a smooth trigger. The trigger on my 1911's are as smooth as I've ever felt on a handgun besides my Model 19-4 S&W.

Can't reenact that with a Glock to whereas its anywhere near safe to carry. My Glocks for CCW are factory Minus my need for night sights on a CCW.


So. I'm going to lean towards steel for my personal liking of guns as an enthusiast. But for self defense they're almost evenly matched to me. However even then, steel because of felt recoil and trigger.

However for weight and other factors. Polymer has a place with me still from time to time. But I always find myself going back to steel somehow.


SIG 1911 XO - Custom SA Mil-Spec 1911 - Colt Golf Cup Trophy 1911 - Colt Series 70 1911 - SIG P226 e2 - BHP Stainless - BHP Blue - W. PPQ - Glock 17,34,19,21,22 - S&W M19-4 - Hk USP 40
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Old December 3, 2012, 08:45 AM   #27
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^Might have to do with age Constantine, bought my first pistol (Beretta 70) back in 1979 and to this day a pretty blue finish and walnut still catches my eye more than other more practicle finishes and materials (on hand guns or rifles).

Last edited by Guv; December 3, 2012 at 09:05 AM. Reason: typo
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Old December 3, 2012, 09:22 AM   #28
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There is some value to a revolver, they don't jam.
Not true at all. I've seem S&W, Ruger, and Taurus revolvers jam or malfunction.
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Old December 3, 2012, 09:38 AM   #29
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I own only one polymer auto a SW MP 4O C. My other autos are a SEECAMP 32. BERETTA 21A. & RUGER MK11.
I LIKE THE FEEL OF STEEL.

Last edited by mrt949; December 5, 2012 at 08:56 AM.
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Old December 3, 2012, 10:27 AM   #30
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A polymer framed pistol does not and can not duplicate the balance and recoil handling of an all steel pistol. In a polymer bottom gun the balance is acceptable at the beginning of a full magazine but as you use rounds the balance changes very rapidly to - top heavy. The more mass on top - the more the gun will rock in your hand. The same thing happens with an all steel gun but to a MUCH lesser degree. It's simply the laws of physics.
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Old December 3, 2012, 10:53 AM   #31
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A polymer framed pistol does not and can not duplicate the balance and recoil handling of an all steel pistol...
I'm sure your point about balance is valid, but I've never noticed it in real world conditions or in competition. In fact, in competition, I've frequently gotten my best times/scores using a Glock 34 or 35. I do almost as well with steel framed guns, but I'm just a hair quicker with the polymer guns.

I understand that the experience just described was just ME -- but a lot of the claims made here about polymer- or steel-framed guns are really similar "just ME" claims made by a different "me."

In terms of recoil, the slight flex in a some polymer frames actually makes recoil less noticeable and better-handled in those guns than in steel-framed guns.
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Old December 3, 2012, 11:52 AM   #32
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I could be wrong here, but it seems that another benefit to polymer guns is that they're easier to make more comfortable. Most manufacturers seem to have figured out how to mold an extremely comfortable grip out of polymer - HK p30, Walther PPQ, S&W M&P etc..
Now that I think about it though, that may have more to do with how new the designs are from both companies than with the frame material. With the exception of a few pocket pistols, it doesn't seem like there's been a lot of innovation in metal framed guns in recent years.
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Old December 3, 2012, 12:10 PM   #33
polyphemus
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"Us older bullseye guys throw out anything that can't hold 2", 10shot groups at 50yds."
This is fantastic,you mean you can see a 2" target 150' away and put ten holes in it?You probably do that consistently or else you would not be telling the world
about it,Annie Oakley could not be prouder.
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Old December 3, 2012, 12:26 PM   #34
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"This is fantastic,you mean you can see a 2" target 150' away and put ten holes in it? You probably do that consistently or else you would not be telling the world about it,Annie Oakley could not be prouder. "

Poly, you mis-understand me. All I'm saying is that a good 1911 can do it from a Ransom rest; I certainly can't anymore. Too d--n old and the eyes are going. Some of the custom builders will even guarantee it right out of the box.

btw, nice reference to the graduate earlier!
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Old December 3, 2012, 12:56 PM   #35
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One reason I prefer the polymer frame is the lighter weight. That makes a difference when you carry it on your belt all day.

Love my Glock 21SF.
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Old December 3, 2012, 01:06 PM   #36
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HK P30. I am not a 1911 fan, but I'd gladly take it from you.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2
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Old December 3, 2012, 01:24 PM   #37
polyphemus
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" All I'm saying is that a good 1911 can do it from a Ransom rest"
That is more like it,I have trouble with metaphors and can barely see my 5"
targets at 50'.Steady rests is something we used,to keep work between centers
and I think my 1911's would object to being placed in one I just can't see U.S
soldiers in the Solomons aiming theirs at charlie on such contraption.
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Old December 3, 2012, 01:57 PM   #38
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Quote:
In a polymer bottom gun the balance is acceptable at the beginning of a full magazine but as you use rounds the balance changes very rapidly to - top heavy.
This comment appears a lot in other threads and in many cases is true. But I have found polymer framed pistols where I find this mostly a non-issue. To be the balance issue only because an issue with a polymer framed pistol when you're talking barrel lengths >4-4.5 inches. I usually prefer a 4" barrel and I find my polymer pistols, HKs mostly, balance just as well as my metal handguns.
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Old December 3, 2012, 02:18 PM   #39
Walt Sherrill
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RE: Ransom Rests...

Excellent devices that helps measure the mechanical accuracy of a handgun. Polymer guns are not compatible with Ransom Rests -- too much give in their frames.

That said, I suspect there are polymer-framed guns that are very accurate, as accuracy -- if you're using the sights -- is dependent on consistent slide/barrel lockup and not slide to frame lockup, and polymer guns are no different than steel-framed gun in that regard.

Most guns, steel or polymer, are capable of more accuracy than the folks shooting them -- and this discussion tends to be a bit like clerics arguing about how many angels can dance on the point of a pin... Lots of opinions but hardly any evidence, proofs, or examples.
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Old December 3, 2012, 02:50 PM   #40
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I am one that could careless how prudy grips can be or the firearm for that fact. I only want one thats reliable. I wonder how many 1911's will shoot 300,000 rounds fire in one like a glock 17. les baer or ed brown ?? maybe.

http://www.tactical-life.com/online/...-torture-test/

I have good all steel old revolvers with rubber grips for hunting and plastic frame pistols for carry. None are purdy buy BBQ standards but simply works well.

Now if someone wants to own heavy weight for size steel handgun all prettied up pretty wood grips , buy ya one. Some of use don't care.

No one except some fool will shoot any pistol in a ranson rest enough times to cause damage. They do rotate back and can be adjusted to work for most frames very well for there intended purpose of the ransom rest.

Now where the other 300,000 round fire handgins at.
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Old December 3, 2012, 03:07 PM   #41
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I'm not good at Google...I hope someone uploads a video of a just as even 1911 torture test already.

That's always the same card played. People are just so hell bent on Glock torture tests. They're a dozen of them online.
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Old December 3, 2012, 05:25 PM   #42
polyphemus
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Those torture tests are done clandestinely,deep in the bowels of the Alcatraz
Hotel,three real beefy guys bare chested wearing face masks begin by pounding the pistol with a mallet to within an inch of its life then strap it to a board that has one of those bump fire things and shoot hundreds of rounds while pouring water on it,finally toss it in the fire dip it in a bucket of ice and fire three more shots while in a barrel of sand if three sample pistols pass that test then they're good to go.
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Old December 4, 2012, 11:04 AM   #43
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constantine I will not carry a glock or a 1911 so I don't care much about ether . Does not matter what someone carriers. Most handguns can cycle more rounds than we all will run thru them in a normal life.

A buddy has a pair of early springfield 1911 that are his match guns. Both have in access of 80 rounds fired in each one. And extractor broke a few weeks back in one of them , still running stock barrels. Replace springs as needed and shoot away.
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Old December 4, 2012, 11:24 AM   #44
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Just a guess

As an inquisitive soul, John Browning, if he were still involved in firearms design and manufactiring, would probabally hold several patents that had to do with 'plastic' guns. He was inventive.

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Old December 4, 2012, 11:30 AM   #45
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A buddy has a pair of early springfield 1911 that are his match guns. Both have in access of 80 rounds fired in each one. And extractor broke a few weeks back in one of them , still running stock barrels. Replace springs as needed and shoot away.
That's irrelevant.

Do me a favor, pick any gun manufacturer your heart desires. I'll find you an issue of any and every kind possible at any given time possible. Wilson Combat, Glock, Hi-Point, Hk...You name it. Whether in the first 50 rounds or 10,000 later.

Bad news travels fast.. Not faster, fast. Cause lately good news doesn't come around anymore to compare it to.
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Old December 4, 2012, 12:11 PM   #46
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Not true at all. I've seem S&W, Ruger, and Taurus revolvers jam or malfunction.
Sure, revolvers can jam...but not because of poor grip, magazine issues or a dud cartridge.

Size is far less of a factor in the overall reliability of a revolver. As the size of a semi-auto decreases, reliable performance often diminishes as well. Smaller slides cycle faster, which can lead to ammunition feeding issues, which can happen without warning...and in a close quarter tussle for one's life, clearing a malfunction in a semi-auto can be the difference between life and something less desirable. With a DA revolver, simply pulling the trigger again is all that is required to get back into action saving one's life.

You are usually very limited as to increasing or decreasing the size of the grips to fit the hand better on a small semi-auto like you can with a small revolver.
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Old December 4, 2012, 12:28 PM   #47
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Preface: I own & carry polymer. The first firearm I fell in love with was a CZ 75B. While being relatively new to firearms, I went from zero to sixty-- I have fired everything from 1911s to Glocks to large frame revolvers to .22LR plinkers. I now work in the business, and handle a variety of firearms on a daily basis.


In short:
1) The Walther PPQ is my favorite handgun-- not that I own. Rather, it is my favorite, period.

2) If I could only own a single handgun, it would be a Ruger SR9c. Second choice: S&W M&P 9c. I believe that the double stack, cut-down duty style pistols provide the best mix of capacity (accepting full size mags), performance, concealability, etc. They can be deep-conceal options, nightstand guns, range toys, or OWB carried 'SHTF' sidearms.

3) I have heard it said that 'Glocks have no soul', and I have one real quibble with that: NO polymer handgun has the same kind of 'personality' as a 1911, BHP, etc. My PPQ is a joy to shoot, but I don't have emotional attachment to MY PPQ. I could buy another one, and carry on without blinking. This would not be true of a nice 1911, or CZ, for myself or many others.

4) The best 'heirloom guns', 'barbecue guns', etc are steel.

5) For duty purposes, carrying OWB with a true gun belt, I feel that the advantage of polymer is diminished. While my PPQ would be my first choice (in fact, I currently OC it at work on a daily basis), my next choices would probably be CZ 75B, Sig 226R, etc.

6) while I'm a sucker for triggers, and rave about the PPQ, Caracal, M&P (with APEX!), SR9/40, and XD (with Springer Precision job) triggers... Even a sub-$500 RIA 1911a1 trigger blows them away, right out of the box.

7) while my two 'must have' handguns are the ones I have now... If I were to have a choice to pass to my kids, I would get a CZ 75BD with ivory grips, and a trigger job, and say, "keep this in the family forever".


These are my opinions. I recognize, acknowledge, and accept that they don't matter to anyone else, beyond conversational value.
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Old December 4, 2012, 12:59 PM   #48
Constantine
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Quote:
Preface: I own & carry polymer. The first firearm I fell in love with was a CZ 75B. While being relatively new to firearms, I went from zero to sixty-- I have fired everything from 1911s to Glocks to large frame revolvers to .22LR plinkers. I now work in the business, and handle a variety of firearms on a daily basis.


In short:
1) The Walther PPQ is my favorite handgun-- not that I own. Rather, it is my favorite, period.

2) If I could only own a single handgun, it would be a Ruger SR9c. Second choice: S&W M&P 9c. I believe that the double stack, cut-down duty style pistols provide the best mix of capacity (accepting full size mags), performance, concealability, etc. They can be deep-conceal options, nightstand guns, range toys, or OWB carried 'SHTF' sidearms.

3) I have heard it said that 'Glocks have no soul', and I have one real quibble with that: NO polymer handgun has the same kind of 'personality' as a 1911, BHP, etc. My PPQ is a joy to shoot, but I don't have emotional attachment to MY PPQ. I could buy another one, and carry on without blinking. This would not be true of a nice 1911, or CZ, for myself or many others.

4) The best 'heirloom guns', 'barbecue guns', etc are steel.

5) For duty purposes, carrying OWB with a true gun belt, I feel that the advantage of polymer is diminished. While my PPQ would be my first choice (in fact, I currently OC it at work on a daily basis), my next choices would probably be CZ 75B, Sig 226R, etc.

6) while I'm a sucker for triggers, and rave about the PPQ, Caracal, M&P (with APEX!), SR9/40, and XD (with Springer Precision job) triggers... Even a sub-$500 RIA 1911a1 trigger blows them away, right out of the box.

7) while my two 'must have' handguns are the ones I have now... If I were to have a choice to pass to my kids, I would get a CZ 75BD with ivory grips, and a trigger job, and say, "keep this in the family forever".


These are my opinions. I recognize, acknowledge, and accept that they don't matter to anyone else, beyond conversational value.

I enjoyed reading that. Agreed with a lot of it too. Thanks for the write up.
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Old December 4, 2012, 01:06 PM   #49
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I started with a polymer gun. I prefer polymer guns. I am okay with them being called "plastic" if metal-frame fans insist, but it's inaccurate. There are worlds of difference between the high-tech polymers used on modern service pistols and the stuff used on kids' toys at the drug store.

I enjoy alloy and steel frames. The 92FS is maybe my favorite platform ever and who can turn down the beauty of a 1911 or my dad's awesome Colt Python?

From a purely practical standpoint, though, the polymer guns have proven themselves over and over again. They're temperature tolerant, flex reduces recoil and also allows the gun to be battered around without many issues, and much, much better at corrosion and element resistance. Dip a polymer frame in salt water all day, then do the same with a metal frame without a quality anti-corrosion finish, and leave both out for a week to see what happens. While polymers frames can and do crack on occasion, in general any abuse that will break a polymer frame would bend parts on a metal frame and both guns would be just as useless. On top of all that, they're cheaper.

So they're not BETTER. Certainly not CLASSIER. But are they practically AS GOOD? Yeah.
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Old December 4, 2012, 02:16 PM   #50
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I have a Sig P220 Elite Stainless, Kimber Eclispe Target II, S&W 686+ Pro series 5", and HK P30L 9mm, and a Walther PPS. If my life depended on quick & accurate shot placement, I'd go with my plastic HK. I enjoy shooting it, and think it has quite a bit of character.

FWIW, I recently let my friend and his father, who helps run the local town range and owns many many guns, including 1911s, shoot it. He loved the thing and now needs to get one.
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