The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Semi-automatic Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 2, 2012, 10:45 AM   #1
Guv
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 24, 2012
Location: South Texas
Posts: 894
Plastic Frames Pistols

So are the new plastic frame guns the front wheel drive sedan's of the gun world? They do things just about as well or better than conventional metal frame guns but is there something missing, personality, etc..... I've got a few and can't complain, well except you can't put some pretty wood grips on them.
Guv is offline  
Old December 2, 2012, 11:05 AM   #2
sigarms228
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 29, 2011
Posts: 638
I have both and they each have their place. I prefer my metal frame SIG pistols except where weight is a factor and then I also own poly frame pistols - a Gen 2 Glock 19 and Walther PPQ.

My next purchase most likely will be another metal frame pistol, probalby a SIG X-Five Allround 9MM and then get some nice Nills grips to put on it.
sigarms228 is offline  
Old December 2, 2012, 11:12 AM   #3
dave9969
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 5, 2012
Location: South Florida
Posts: 199
I grew up in the day of the revolver.
the only auto was the 1911.

My dad was a cop when I was in high school, and he carried a S&W .357 chrome with pachmire grips.

There is some value to a revolver, they don't jam. They are pretty to look at. Other than that, I carry a Sig Sauer 9mm. greater capacity ammo, as reliable if you take care of it.
there is a faction of gun owners that are all about wood furniture an if its a old gun its a good gun.
Personally I prefer a good synthetic grip/stock that functions before looks. If I am forced to use a weapon in a combat setting, I very well may be using it as a hammer/club to what ever need arises. Try that with old wood grips. No thanks. Give me a good synthetic polymer frame and handle on a modern gun any day.
dave9969 is offline  
Old December 2, 2012, 11:19 AM   #4
thedudeabides
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 22, 2012
Posts: 981
If you prove to me that a striker fired gun with a long trigger pull, trigger safety, no barrel bushing, and a short barrel shooting Satan's ammo (40 SW) is more accurate than a 5'' SAO 1911 45 ACP with a trigger job and match barrel, I will GIVE you my Wilson Combat.

Most plastic gun fans have never shot a 1911 or a real revolver.
thedudeabides is offline  
Old December 2, 2012, 03:05 PM   #5
drail
Junior member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2008
Posts: 3,150
No, they CAN'T do things just as well or better than conventional metal frames. But as long as people believe they do they will sell all they can squirt out of a mold. They can be manufactured for much less than a machined steel frame (but you will pay almost the same price for the cheap plastic). I agree with the dude. Most of these young guys bloviating about their "perfect" plastic pistols are completely astounded when you hand them a properly built 1911 or S&W N Frame. I just love the look on their faces when they fire one. Then they usually mumble something about how their plastic gun holds 17 rounds to which I have to reply, "you must plan on missing a lot". Oh, and front wheel drive ain't all that great either.

Last edited by drail; December 2, 2012 at 03:14 PM.
drail is offline  
Old December 2, 2012, 05:11 PM   #6
wpsdlrg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 18, 2009
Posts: 461
Plastic frames generally cost less than $5.00 to make. They do not require expensive machining to final tolerances, either. So, they are much more profitable for the gun companies. That is MOST of the reason for their existence.

The all-metal guns which are still in production are increasingly being moved to off-shore production (to decrease labor costs). The remaining domestically-produced all-metal guns are becoming the top end of the market, price wise, at a rapid pace.

A thoroughly unfortunate trend, in my opinion....but no doubt inevitable, given the cost/ profit difference.
wpsdlrg is offline  
Old December 2, 2012, 05:57 PM   #7
K_Mac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2010
Posts: 470
Quote:
Most plastic gun fans have never shot a 1911 or a real revolver.
A version of this thread is almost always running on site, and a version of the above quote is usually there. A quality 1911 or revolver is a joy without a doubt, but while there are some (maybe many) who do not know what they are missing, most of us who hang out here know the value of both the above firearms and polymer framed weapons, AKA cheap Tupperware pistols. There is at least as much bloviating from the 1911 and steel revolver crowd as there is from the plastic perfection guys.

There is absolutely nothing better for me to tote around as a defensive weapon than my compact 9 mm polymer pistol. I don't understand why that offends anyone. It does exactly what it is designed to do very well at a reasonable cost. I do not care that the production methods have changed and the end product feels "cheap" to some. Please do not tell me my choice is uninformed-it is not. Use what you want. I will continue to enjoy all of the above.
__________________
"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin

"If you let "need" be a requirement and Government be the arbiter of that "need", then Liberty is as dead as King Tut." Jimbob86
K_Mac is offline  
Old December 2, 2012, 06:15 PM   #8
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 4,312
Quote:
Most plastic gun fans have never shot a 1911 or a real revolver.
Must be one of the most ignorant comments I've ever read on these forums.
__________________
Guns don't kill people. Apes with guns kill people! - Robin Williams
TunnelRat is offline  
Old December 2, 2012, 07:16 PM   #9
dogtown tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 1,514
Quote:
thedudeabides If you prove to me that a striker fired gun with a long trigger pull, trigger safety, no barrel bushing, and a short barrel shooting Satan's ammo (40 SW) is more accurate than a 5'' SAO 1911 45 ACP with a trigger job and match barrel, I will GIVE you my Wilson Combat.
If you can shoot seventeen times without reloading.....get back to me.
A Glock, HK, or SIG plastic pistol is accurate enough for anything a soldier or police officer will shoot at.


Quote:
Most plastic gun fans have never shot a 1911 or a real revolver.
I have.
I own a dozen Hi Powers, four 1911's and six double action revolvers......any of which would be a fine choice for a carry gun......but I'll take any Glock as my carry gun (in any caliber) before i'll take any of my pretty guns.

1911 fanboys are every bit as obnoxious as Glock fanboys.
__________________
Need a FFL in north Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me.

$20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers)
dogtown tom is offline  
Old December 2, 2012, 07:27 PM   #10
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 18,282
Quote:
If you prove to me that a striker fired gun with a long trigger pull, trigger safety, no barrel bushing, and a short barrel shooting Satan's ammo (40 SW) is more accurate than a 5'' SAO 1911 45 ACP with a trigger job and match barrel, I will GIVE you my Wilson Combat.
I'm not sure why it would surprise anyone that an out of the box duty/style pistol isn't likely to outshoot a high-end pistol that's been given a trigger job and a match barrel.
Quote:
Most plastic gun fans have never shot a 1911 or a real revolver.
If having a number of guns with plastic frames makes me a fan, then I don't fit your idea of a plastic gun fan. My first gun was a revolver and my first autopistol had a metal frame. In addition, I have shot (and own) a variety of revolvers and metal-framed guns. That includes shooting at least one 1911.

I find it interesting to see how many people apparently believe that if someone has a different opinion than they do on a particular topic, it must be due to lack of experience or ignorance.
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old December 2, 2012, 07:39 PM   #11
5.56RifleGuy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 9, 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 1,135
"Plastic frames generally cost less than $5.00 to make. They do not require expensive machining to final tolerances, either. So, they are much more profitable for the gun companies. That is MOST of the reason for their existence.

The all-metal guns which are still in production are increasingly being moved to off-shore production (to decrease labor costs). The remaining domestically-produced all-metal guns are becoming the top end of the market, price wise, at a rapid pace.

A thoroughly unfortunate trend, in my opinion....but no doubt inevitable, given the cost/ profit difference."

You seem to be forgetting the extensive design, testing, massive investment in tooling costs. I would imagine the tooling to make polymer framed items is a lot more custom than a mill and a lathe also.

Poly frame guns, for the most part, end up costing less than a metal frame gun for the end user, as well as manufacturer.
5.56RifleGuy is offline  
Old December 2, 2012, 08:18 PM   #12
springer99
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 2008
Posts: 146
Polymer guns just cost less to produce; it's really that simple. It's not because they expect them to be more rugged or last longer. They can be very accurate, at least when new. Many guys buying pistols these days end up shooting silhouette targets at indoor 7yd and 15yd range and are happy with that.

I doubt you'll see many polymer pistols out in the hunting fields, or on the 25yr/50yd line at bullseye matches though. They do, however, make acceptable holes in things at close range which is what most pistols are used for in any case.
springer99 is offline  
Old December 2, 2012, 08:19 PM   #13
weblance
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 3, 2012
Posts: 618
Quote:
Originally Posted by drail
No, they CAN'T do things just as well or better than conventional metal frames.
Ok... explain to me how my Ruger P95s cant do things just as well as a metal framed pistol. Be careful... an argument of how the polymer frame isnt going to last is ridiculous. I have literally thousands of rounds through my 2 P95s with absolutely NO signs of wear. These pistols have no metal inserts, the slide rides directly on the polymer frame.
weblance is offline  
Old December 2, 2012, 08:20 PM   #14
polyphemus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2012
Posts: 417
Mr. McGuire: I just want to say one word to you. Just one word.
Benjamin: Yes, sir.
Mr. McGuire: Are you listening?
Benjamin: Yes, I am.
Mr. McGuire: Plastics.
polyphemus is offline  
Old December 2, 2012, 08:56 PM   #15
Guv
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 24, 2012
Location: South Texas
Posts: 894
Maybe I'm not up to speed, but whats with the 40S&W being called "Satan's Ammo"? Pretty good round in my opinion.
Guv is offline  
Old December 2, 2012, 09:02 PM   #16
FlySubCompact
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2012
Posts: 221
I've shot and owned several solid metal handguns and liked them over the years.

For less than a year I've owned a couple of plastic Glocks.

In that time.......

.....I've ran more rounds through them than any other pistol I've owned or shot.
.....shot more accurately than I would have ever believed.
.....shot more times without malfunctions than I would have ever believed.
.....actually enjoyed practice more (see above)
.....only cleaned them once or twice and have never had to oil the exterior once for corosion protection.
......liked how the grip is temperature neutral in weather extremes.
.....enjoyed how much lighter they are than a full sized "metal" gun while carrying.
.....gladly bought my wife one when her face lit up after shooting the first one we bought. (she used to CC and shoot a .38sp)
.....bought two great defensive pistols for the same price as one decent 1911.

Don't get me wrong, I would dearly love to own a 1911 for a high end six gun, but that would be placing "wants" in front of "needs" in my case.
FlySubCompact is offline  
Old December 2, 2012, 09:10 PM   #17
KMAX
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,061
Plastic just doesn't give me that feeling of pride that I get from steel. As for function I guess it is okay. It just doesn't thrill me. At least I haven't found a poly frame that I can really admire. There are a few I am considering purchasing. Maybe I will find that magic poly frame some day, but I haven't seen it yet. If you like your poly, more power to you. It's just not for me.
__________________
This is my gun. There are many like her, but this one is mine.

I'm not old. I'm CLASSIC!
KMAX is offline  
Old December 2, 2012, 09:38 PM   #18
TMD
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 9, 2011
Posts: 482
Quote:
So are the new plastic frame guns the front wheel drive sedan's of the gun world?
NEW????? They have been around for over 30 years now. Thats older then most the members on here.

Quote:
Most plastic gun fans have never shot a 1911 or a real revolver.
I own a half dozen 1911's. Granted my Dan Wesson Razorback or Springfield TRP may not be as fancy as you Wilson combat so I may not know what then heck I am saying. I do know that with my Glock G35 I can out shoot most guys with their fancy works of art. Yep a plastic .40 can shoot some pretty respectable groups but I guess its because I spent $12 for some springs and a .25 cent trigger job.

Last edited by TMD; December 3, 2012 at 07:28 AM.
TMD is offline  
Old December 2, 2012, 10:25 PM   #19
Guv
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 24, 2012
Location: South Texas
Posts: 894
New???? in regards to if you consider how long center fire handguns have been around, I am fully aware of when Gaston Glock moved from home appliances to the "plastic gun" able to get past metal detectors.
Guv is offline  
Old December 2, 2012, 10:26 PM   #20
45_auto
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 21, 2011
Location: Southern Louisiana
Posts: 588
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedudeabides
If you prove to me that a striker fired gun with a long trigger pull, trigger safety, no barrel bushing, and a short barrel shooting Satan's ammo (40 SW) is more accurate than a 5'' SAO 1911 45 ACP with a trigger job and match barrel, I will GIVE you my Wilson Combat.
Drop me a PM if you're ever in the New Orleans area. I know several people who would love for you to donate your gun to them.
45_auto is offline  
Old December 2, 2012, 10:44 PM   #21
springer99
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 2008
Posts: 146
Accuracy in handguns is very subjective, and depends on what game(s) you play and what your expectations are. Action guys are happy to center a silhouette at 7yds, and a pie plate at 15. Us older bullseye guys throw out anything that can't hold 2", 10shot groups at 50yds.

Both can fill the need, but they are different needs.
springer99 is offline  
Old December 2, 2012, 10:58 PM   #22
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 18,282
Quote:
Us older bullseye guys throw out anything that can't hold 2", 10shot groups at 50yds.
What off-the-shelf centerfire semi-autos, regardless of type of trigger action or frame material do you find that are able to meet that accuracy spec?

I read a lot of reviews, including ones of very expensive, metal-framed handguns fired from machine rests, and offhand, I don't recall reading about any off-the-shelf centerfire semi-autos that meet that spec.

What I'm getting at is that if you have a pistol that will shoot 10 shots into 2" at 50 yards then it's safe to say that it didn't shoot like that out of the box and also that the things that make it so accurate have little to do with the frame material.

Which means that if you're going to denigrate plastic framed pistols for not being able to hold 2" ten shot groups at 50 yards, that same negativity applies to any off-the-shelf pistol, regardless of frame material.
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old December 2, 2012, 11:02 PM   #23
Webleymkv
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 20, 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 9,876
While I don't have anything against polymer frames, I've yet to come across a polymer-framed gun that could fit my needs/wants better than a steel-framed gun could. Weight is not a huge concern to me as I believe in using a quality holster and belt, I don't see polymer offering a huge advantage in corrosion resistance over a stainless steel gun, and all the polymer guns I'd be interested in cost as much or more than a steel gun of comparable quality.

What I really don't care for, however, are striker-fired guns because I've never found one that had as smooth and/or crisp a trigger as I can find on a hammer-fired gun. While it's true that some are better than others, in my experience they still range from just OK (Walther PPQ) to kind of gritty (Glocks) to a mile of grit and sand (CZ-100).
__________________
Smith, and Wesson, and Me. -H. Callahan
Well waddaya know, one buwwet weft! -E. Fudd
All bad precedents begin as justifiable measures. -J. Caesar
Webleymkv is offline  
Old December 2, 2012, 11:29 PM   #24
springer99
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 2008
Posts: 146
"What off the shelf centerfire semi-autos, regardless of type of trigger action or frame material do you find that are able to meet that accuracy spec?"

I don't remember stating that this accuracy spec. had to be met from the factory, but I'm told there are makers out there that can do it. Way out of my league though, price-wise. I do own an old springfield 1911 wadgun that has a good BarSto barrel and tight bushing that will do it though. Even have an inexpensive RIA GI with a tight $30 bushing that comes very close. My M9, not even close; at least not yet.


"I read a lot of reviews, including ones of very expensive, metal-framed handguns fired from machine rests, and offhand, I don't recall reading about any off-the-shelf centerfire semi-autos that meet that spec. What I'm getting at is that if you have a pistol that will shoot 10 shots into 2" at 50 yards then it's safe to say that it didn't shoot like that out of the box and also that the things that make it so accurate have little to do with the frame material."

I'm told that the AMU struggled for years trying to get the Berreta M9 to shoot as accurate as their 1911's, and those frame were alloy. A friend of mine shoots with them and I've seen their solution. A big part of it was to add steel rails back into those alloy frames.


"Which means that if you're going to denigrate plastic framed pistols for not being able to hold 2" ten shot groups at 50 yards, that same negativity applies to any off-the-shelf pistol, regardless of frame material. "

You're right on there. That would be true for anyone still shooting bullseye today, which is why 1911 gunsmiths are held in high regard. I'm not denegrating polymer guns, they have their place. I just doubt it will ever be in bullseye though.
springer99 is offline  
Old December 2, 2012, 11:30 PM   #25
9mm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 9, 2011
Location: Land of the Free
Posts: 2,711
Quote:
Most plastic gun fans have never shot a 1911 or a real revolver.
....... I own some revolvers and an 1911...

Huge Glock fan boy, my daily CCW is 26&19.
__________________
See user title
9mm is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:06 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13246 seconds with 7 queries