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Old December 11, 2012, 01:14 PM   #151
klyph3
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Mike, comparing an lcr to a g20 to make your point is a bit ridiculous. I could compare an lcp to a S&W .500 and compare the weight of just the barrel and cylinder to the entire polymer gun. If this thread is about the merits of the design in a general sense, we must speak generally rather than compare the largest of one to the smallest of the other. You keep clamoring for empirical data, but the little bit you've provided is pretty obviously skewed.
Revolvers have interchangeable grips, so do autos, yes people's hands are different sizes. Some high capacity autos have large grips, some high power revolvers have large grips, people with small hands won't like either. As far as weight distribution in the hand, yes autos are better. The forward weight of the revolver mitigating recoil is countered by it's high bore axis. The lower bore axis of an auto means less muzzle flip, though the recoil is sharper due to it's lighter forward weight (Here's where you compare the chiappa rhino to some outlyer auto to prove me wrong). I don't think that necessarily creates a definitive advantage for either, but in my experience, the revolvers DA trigger and forward heavy design results in more hand fatigue faster than a poly auto.
As far as mechanical complexity, yes revolvers are more complex.




You are massively oversimplifying what happens when you pull the trigger on your revolver.
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Old December 11, 2012, 01:28 PM   #152
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As far as mechanical complexity, yes revolvers are more complex.
The original contention was that they're obsolete, which means no longer useful or in use. I've yet to see proof of that.

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You keep clamoring for empirical data, but the little bit you've provided is pretty obviously skewed.
It's not his job to provide evidence. You made the assertion, so the burden of proof is yours.

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Old December 11, 2012, 01:34 PM   #153
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"Mike, comparing an lcr to a g20 to make your point is a bit ridiculous."

About as ludicrous as making vast, sweeping generalizations that essentially equate any single revolver to any single semi-auto, wouldn't you say?

My comparison wasn't intended to be empirical data.

But it was intended to point out to you the massive flaw in your argument.


"As far as mechanical complexity, yes revolvers are more complex."

Your proof is a DRAWING naming the parts?

What the hell kind of "proof" is that?

Mechanical complexity is NOT measured by the total sum of an object's parts, it is measured by the operational interplay BETWEEN those parts.

And, once again, you're choosing a SINGLE revolver to represent the entire class, and a SINGLE semi-auto to represent the entire class.

I guess you haven't learned anything about sweeping generalizations.
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Old December 11, 2012, 02:09 PM   #154
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You are massively oversimplifying what happens when you pull the trigger on your revolver.
And you're massively under-simplifying what happens when you pull the trigger on your semiauto. Keep in mind, I said I was simplifying what happened.

The very act of extracting and ejecting a spent casing and then stripping another round from the magazine is an incredibly complex action. Nothing on a revolver comes close to this amount of mechanical complexity. It's also, incidentally, where most malfunctions occur on a semiauto.

Think about this for a second. Take two guns. A hammer fired DA semiauto, and a DA revolver. I think that we can likely agree that the two guns work basically the same as far as dropping the hammer onto the firing pin is concerned. This is, of course a simplification (writing that so you don't call me out for something I called myself out on again). So what's left?

In a revolver, the cylinder has to turn, typically 60 degrees (it could be 72 for a 5 shot, or about 51 degrees for something like a 686 Plus). Other than the dropping of the hammer, that's the only other action that must occur for another shot to be fired. This is an incredibly reliable, and simple mechanical action.

For the semiauto, the slide has to move back with the casing in the extractor, it must hit the ejector and actually eject out of the breech (something that is a mostly reliable action, but does sometimes FTE), then on the way back the slide must pick up another round, and shove it into the chamber. All of these actions work in different ways depending on how you're holding the gun, the type of round, and even the projectile. This is a very complex mechanical operation. The rotation of the cylinder is a much more simple operation, and doesn't change based on grip or ammunition.

As has been said, the number of parts isn't always a measure of complexity. It's how those parts interact. That's why we always hear the term "moving parts." The more moving parts, the more the move, and the longer distances they move are a better measure of complexity.

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I don't think that necessarily creates a definitive advantage for either
So why are you spending so much time on that subject if it doesn't prove your point of an auto being better?

The bottom line is that there is no definitive way to quantify which type of gun is better. They both have advantages and drawbacks. It really boils down to preference. You're trying to use empirical (stress the word trying) to prove that your preference in handgun is definitively better. But it isn't. It's not better, but it's not worse. It's your choice. And you will never be able to prove your choice was better.

Here's something else to consider. If semiautos were empirically better, don't you think revolvers would die off as practical firearms? Instead, they're seeing a resurgence in popularity. Most major manufacturers (with the exception of the companies that typically stick to autos, like glock, sig, etc) continue to come out with new models, and variations of revolvers. The market is a good place to determine whether something is obsolete or not. The market for an original iPhone is basically non-existent. Why? Because it's obsolete. It has no use anymore. The market for CRT TVs is basically non-existent. Why? Because they're obsolete. The market for revolvers, is, for lack of a better term, booming. What does that tell you?

Last edited by Gaerek; December 11, 2012 at 02:17 PM.
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Old December 11, 2012, 02:45 PM   #155
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I admitted obsolete was a poor choice of words, they very much are still in use. They are not typically issued by military, police, or private security, but are still usually recommended to old ladies and newbies who can't be trusted to operate a contraption as complex and mysterious as an autoloader by fudds who grew up watching John Wayne and dirty Harry.

And yes, when comparing two broad categories, generalizations must be made. These generalizations are derived from the individual members of each category. I couldn't find generic cutaways to demonstrate the complex internal mechanism that is usually overlooked when making the comparison. I do like that everybody in this discussion gets to define what complexity means. If I need to compile data and perform mathematical averages and upload a spreadsheet for you to see my point, I think I'll just accept the fact that you don't.
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Old December 11, 2012, 02:57 PM   #156
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I don't consider revolvers obsolete.

I consider them to be more like a manual transmission.

Perfectly functional, maybe better in some ways, a lot of fun in some circumstances but unquestionably "worse" or less convenient in other ways.

Nothing wrong with a manual but virtually no one needs one and most people would prefer, and be better served by, an automatic.

The manual transmission aficionados doth protest, but most everyone else picks the automatic.

The manuals are still popular in some circles, for specific jobs, but their numbers are dwarfed by automatics.

Revolvers are the manual transmissions of the gun world.

Not a perfect analogy, but it gets the point across.
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Old December 11, 2012, 03:01 PM   #157
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Actually, very few people NEED an auto transmission other than to fuel laziness.
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Old December 11, 2012, 03:01 PM   #158
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They are not typically issued by military, police, or private security, but are still usually recommended to old ladies and newbies who can't be trusted to operate a contraption as complex and mysterious as an autoloader by fudds who grew up watching John Wayne and dirty Harry.
Untrue. Many private security firms still use revolvers, and they still have military applications.

The second part of that sentence concerns me. I can run an automatic very well. So do many of the people who you just insulted, some of whom would put 99% of the shooting community to shame on the range.

That we choose revolvers speaks to their credibility as an instrument. That choice is based on first-hand experience in the hands of people who know what they're doing.

Quote:
Actually, very few people NEED an auto transmission other than to fuel laziness.
Hey, now...I need to free up one hand so I can text on my phone and stir my coffee!
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Old December 11, 2012, 03:30 PM   #159
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Hm, that's odd, Pops carried a Smith and Wesson Model 15 for awhile, even after the M-9 was "standard issue."

In his part time gig, he carries a Model 66. And he used an M-1911A1 pretty effectively in his younger days. Or else I wouldn't be here.

I don't know if this falls under empirical or anectedotal, but the one Deputy from my hometown who was invovled in a gunfight and still carries a badge carries a Smith and Wesson Model 13, the same one he was issued in 1993 and the same one he used in said gunfight.
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Old December 11, 2012, 03:53 PM   #160
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They are not typically issued. There's nothing untrue about that statement.
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Old December 11, 2012, 04:01 PM   #161
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Yeah, and the US military doesn't typically issue Glocks or H&Ks or -1911 style automatics either.
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Old December 11, 2012, 06:28 PM   #162
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Ah the joys of generalized comparisons based on specific examples.
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Old December 11, 2012, 08:34 PM   #163
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That specific example is my generic response to the rampant Glock/polymer howler monkeys who proclaim that the guns of Sam Colt and John Moses Browning are dead and gone in the modern military world.

Your average grunt or dogface isn't going to carry a Glock. He is going to carry a Beretta.

But then again, us guys who only wear the black beret or a stetson aren't tactical enough for internet commandoes.
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Old December 11, 2012, 08:43 PM   #164
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OK, two things...

1.

"Ah the joys of generalized comparisons based on specific examples."

No offense, but after some of the all encompassing "specific examples" that you've shared, do you really want to toss bones like that?


2.

I'm starting to see messages getting a tad on the sour and personal side. If that continues, the thread will be locked and posters could be getting some infractions.

Think about what you post.
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Old December 11, 2012, 09:35 PM   #165
klyph3
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That bone I tossed was aimed at everyone in this thread including me. That's what we're doing after all. It was a general frustration at discussions such as this. In order to speak generally of the category, the exceptions are discounted, then the opposition brings up those exceptions to counter the generalization. Ad nauseam. Neither's viewpoint is recognized as valid due to ingrained prejudices and personal bias. Opinions and facts become interchangeable and then someone gets offended. Exclamation marks and caps lock ensue then the thread gets locked.

What I take from this thread is that both designs have their strong points, one's advantage over the other usually comes at a compromise in some other department. For me, the sum total of advantages minus compromises puts a Tupperware gun ahead of a wheel gun IMO. My preferences lead me to believe that a detachable magazine is better, lighter weight and higher capacity is better, a thinner profile and higher barrel length to overall length ratio is better. You're free to choose for yourself.
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Old December 11, 2012, 10:01 PM   #166
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Easy Big Fella

Quote:
I don't consider revolvers obsolete.

I consider them to be more like a manual transmission.
Just as there are different manual transmissions, there are different revolvers.
I just finished the paperwork on Colt Police Positive Target in 22 WRF. Made in 1919, the same year as the first ever Ford Model "T" manual transmission.
No comparison. Closer to a Muncie 4 speed, and yes, still a "manual".

This revolver is so smooth, and almost tiny, like the old Ruger Bearcats compared to the full sized single sixes.
Don't get me wrong, I have seven different double action semi autos and this revolver is easier and smother than any of them in double action and single action.
I know, poor post, sorta back on topic, and without poorly worded challenges
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Old December 11, 2012, 10:19 PM   #167
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I know, poor post, sorta back on topic, and without poorly worded challenges
Oh, heck no. You got a gun I've been seeking for ages. I'm burning with jealousy. Therefore, I must question your family history and personal hygiene!
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Old December 11, 2012, 11:30 PM   #168
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Originally posted by klyph3
Quote:
They are not typically issued by military, police, or private security, but are still usually recommended to old ladies and newbies who can't be trusted to operate a contraption as complex and mysterious as an autoloader by fudds who grew up watching John Wayne and dirty Harry.
OK, I've been trying to stay out of this whole debate for the most part but this I have to take exception to. Soldiers, by and large, have to come to the party with whatever gun their government has decided they will bring. The one and only handgun that most American soldiers will ever go into battle with is the Beretta M9 whether they like it or not. Cops are much the same in that most of them are stuck with whatever their department has decided is best, but even so there are still a lot of revolvers in cops' pockets and on their ankles as BUG's. Private security I'd very much like to see a citation for because I still see a 50/50 split between revolvers and autos amongst armored car drivers (the only armed private security I see on a regular basis).

As to newbies, the notion that they're a large part of the revolver-using public is contradicted by the very premise of this thread. In my experience, newbies seem to gravitate towards the whiz-bang semi-autos that they've seen in the latest action movie, used in the newest version of Call of Duty, or been sold on by the gunstore commando. Instead, it seems to be the more seasoned shooters that eventually come to appreciate the attributes of a good revolver.
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Old December 11, 2012, 11:47 PM   #169
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Fudds?

Klyph you wascawy wabble wowser! . You are referring to me and I take pride in being a wheel gun shooter. I guess we live in a free country, last I heard. So you can shoot bottom feeders and I will stick to me revolvers.
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Old December 12, 2012, 02:34 AM   #170
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I personally do not like combat tupperware, and after 2 glocks and a usp I'll stick to metal. I alternate between full size 45's (1911, p220 match elite) and N frame smiths.
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Old December 12, 2012, 06:37 AM   #171
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"They are not typically issued by military, police, or private security, but are still usually recommended to old ladies and newbies who can't be trusted to operate a contraption as complex and mysterious as an autoloader by fudds who grew up watching John Wayne and dirty Harry."

What I find to be generally troubling is that so many people immediately assume that if the police or military carry something, it must, by extension, be the absolute best solution for their application.

As Webley has noted, police (most often) and the military carry what they are TOLD to carry, with the choice of service weapon as often as not being made by an individual, or panel of individuals, who likely have never used a firearm offensively or defensively.

I've written extensively here and other places about the psychology that went into the groundswell shift from revolvers to automatics in the civilian and police markets starting in the late 1970s, and in generally it was NOT a pretty process. It was fraught with panic, poor choices, and bad outcomes.
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Old December 12, 2012, 06:46 AM   #172
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The lower bore axis of an auto...
I don't know if the posted drawings are to scale, but if you take a ruler to them (web of grip to bore axis) I think you're in for a surprise.
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Old December 12, 2012, 09:42 AM   #173
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That bone I tossed was aimed at everyone in this thread including me. That's what we're doing after all. It was a general frustration at discussions such as this. In order to speak generally of the category, the exceptions are discounted, then the opposition brings up those exceptions to counter the generalization. Ad nauseam. Neither's viewpoint is recognized as valid due to ingrained prejudices and personal bias. Opinions and facts become interchangeable and then someone gets offended. Exclamation marks and caps lock ensue then the thread gets locked.
Welcome to the Internet, are you new here?

Seriously though, this is basically the only type of discussion you will ever see on the Internet. It's like a thread you might find titled:

Superman vs. Darth Vader...discuss.

In the end, there is never a winner. Ingrained prejudices will always show through. In the discussion at hand, there is no way to make a clear winner. All those things you mentioned about Glockerware guns is basically true. But there is something to be said about the reliability of a wheel gun (the reason I carry one of each).

Quote:
What I take from this thread is that both designs have their strong points, one's advantage over the other usually comes at a compromise in some other department. For me, the sum total of advantages minus compromises puts a Tupperware gun ahead of a wheel gun IMO. My preferences lead me to believe that a detachable magazine is better, lighter weight and higher capacity is better, a thinner profile and higher barrel length to overall length ratio is better. You're free to choose for yourself.
And it was clear from the beginning that your ingrained prejudices were causing you to not look at the discussion rationally. This is the first time (that I see, anyway) you've mentioned that Tupperware is your preference. Every other post was you trying to rationalize and use "facts" to prove that your preference was the right one.

I'm with you, when I first decided to carry, all those advantages of a plastic gun were the reason I went with that first. I still believe those advantages outweigh the advantages of a revolver. But I simply cannot ignore the simplicity, elegance, and reliability of a revolver, so when I decided I wanted to carry a BUG, revolver was my first choice. Though, it's somewhat ironic that I went with a polymer revolver...
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Old December 12, 2012, 10:15 AM   #174
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I don't consider revolvers obsolete.

I consider them to be more like a manual transmission.
That analogy would be apt, if you had to pay extra for a manual transmission: have you seen the prices on revolvers!?!? The automatic transmission is an upcharge when buying a car.....
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Old December 12, 2012, 10:45 AM   #175
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This thread reminds me of the Ford vs Chevrolet debate on auto forums. The fans of one brand bash the other and claim their choice is better while others have and like both. Like guns, one is not better or worse than the other, just different. I have two semi-automatics but I want a revolver. However, I can find no real excuse to buy one and they are more expensive than I want to spend on something I don't need.
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