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Old December 2, 2012, 11:17 AM   #26
cw308
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Thats the best way. Be Safe, enjoy Chris
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Old December 2, 2012, 01:02 PM   #27
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In my experience with neck sizing, there has been no night and day difference in accuracy, rather an improvement on an already accurate load, the improvement was slight in most cases.

The caliber that has benefited the most for me with neck sizing was .338 win mag; It was not innacurate before. It head spaces off the the belt way down at the base of the case, the neck sized cases fit the chamber better IMO. At least that is what I credit the improvement to.
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Old December 2, 2012, 01:32 PM   #28
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603Country, You've got 30yr experience reloading not sure I agree that you should change based on how others reloading.

I would get on Palma,BR and F-Class site's and see what's current and how they loading. I shot Br and results from the 1987 Super Shoot which is the big one there was winning groups low .2 and high .1's and small group shot was 081". this year they had I think 3/4 groups winning that were in the .1's rest were in the .2's so not much has changed.

Look at how the F-Class open shooters load vs Palma shooters today not lot of different.

You also have to consider match rifle vs factory. I shoot some pretty nice chamber rifles so I can skip some step that I might do with factory rifle.
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Old December 2, 2012, 01:39 PM   #29
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There are folks who have tried proper full length sizing tools and techniques that have not worked for them Having helped more than a few get andor do the right stuff after seeing how they used their own full length stuff, they all got better accuracy. The biggest cause of one neck only sizing producing better accuracy than their full length trials is twofold.

One common problem is the case necks get sized down way too much by the FL die and the expander ball bends the neck enlarging it to a thousandth or so smaller than its diameter. Uniform case neck wall thickness a bit usually helps fix this. And lubing the inside of the case neck before sizing also helps; just be darned sure you clean that lube out with naptha or something else that doesn't leave a film.

Another one is the FL die's set too low in the press and sizes fired cases such that their shoulder's moved back too far. This means rimless bottleneck cases are pushed too far by the firing pin into the chamber before their shoulder stops against the chamber shoulder. The more uneven the case wall thickness is, the more one side of that case will stretch back and smack the bolt face off center enough to cause accuracy problems; Yes, this happens; Creighton Audette wrote quite an article years ago on this very thing. Full length sizing dies should be set so they push fired case shoulders back only 1 to 2 thousandths of an inch. This has been the "standard" since the late 1950's.

The last issue is the fired case is "partial neck sized" with a full length sizing die where only some of the neck's sized down. This typically ends up pushing the fired case shouder foreard to where it get pushed into the chamber shoulder when the bolt's closed and binds up. As most rifle's bolt faces are not square with the chamber axis, this means a previously fired case has a head that aint' square after it slams into the bolt face with 12,000 pounds of force from peak pressure over 60,000 psi. When the high point of each surface align, that causes more accuracy problems as the bolt binds up inconsistantly to the receiver for each shot and this causes accuracy problems. The bolt must go "back into battery" exactly the same for each and every shot. Even tapping the op rod of an M1 or M14 service rifle will change the bolt's seat fit to the receiver and the round in the chamber won't shoot too accurate relative to rounds chambered and no tap, bump or press whatsoever on the bolt handle.

Eventually, all neck only sized bottleneck cases will have to be full length sized. Each firing ends up with the body and shoulder dimensions being a tiny bit bigger. But the barrel's chamber stays the same size. More than a few hunters using neck only sized cases couldn't chamber around to waylay Bambi's daddy when it stood still for 5 minutes 76 yards 4 inches away. Back when neck only was popular with benchresters, they full length sized every 5 or 6 reloads on a given case so they would chamber easily without binding up the bolt; bolt binding's a no-no for accuracy buffs.

All the above aside, if your and your stuff doesn't shoot better than 1 MOA at worst for100 yard targets, you may well not see any difference across all the tools and techniques used to reload fired cases in center fire rifles.
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Old December 2, 2012, 06:59 PM   #30
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Old Roper, you make a good point about all the years I've been reloading. Everything I've got shoots just fine already, but all the chatter about what sizing method works better has me interested in what really works best for me, and can I do better. Over the last year or so I've transitioned to neck sizing from partial resizing because I thought it would increase accuracy. I didn't really check those rifles to see if accuracy really improved. That was a mistake (maybe), or maybe it just doesn't matter much. I've been loading and shooting all day, and reading all my old reload notes while the barrel cooled. On the 65 grain SGK bullets in my 223, all my great groups were with partial resizing. With the 40 gr Nosler BT's, my notes say "neck sized, but tried Partial and FL and can't see much diff. Groups from 1/2 to 3/4". So, maybe all this work I'm doing might not show a definite preference on sizing methods. Or maybe it will depend on each individual rifle.

My bullet chosen for this test, the 69 gr Sierra HPBT, just isn't shooting that well in this rifle. I've tried several powders and distance off the lands. I've got one promising load and I'll try it some tomorrow and tweak it a bit. If it wasn't for some minor vertical stringing, they'd all be in one hole. If I can't get what I want, I'll just switch to the 40 grain Noslers and do my test with them. I have hundreds of them.
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Old December 2, 2012, 07:31 PM   #31
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When done correctly, FL sizing won't overwork the brass.
Whenever I come across posts about resizing done without the use of a comparative headspace measurement (as in using the LNL gauge) I wonder what they're thinking; there's no way to get correct shoulder bump without it.

Sure, you can just screw the die down to the shellplate, but you might end up bumping back too far (still within SAAMI spec- but too far for your particular chamber)...

As said, bushing dies (gotta get me these) assure proper neck tension. Get a bushing one thou smaller than your fireformed case neck, and voila...correct neck tension tailored specifically to your chamber.
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Old December 3, 2012, 06:20 PM   #32
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Yep, tobnpr, I do think that FL sizing Bushing Die must be the way to go. I've been shooting, loading, and rifle cleaning now for 2 days, and though I don't have my final thoughts on what sizing method is best, I'm getting some definite feelings about it. Rather than use that Sierra 69 gr HPBT, I just decided that it would be quicker and probably more valuable to me to use the two bullets that I actually use and that already shoot great in the rifle. That's the Sierra 65 gr GK and the Nosler 40 gr Ballistic Tip. The Sierras are still waiting to be shot, and I'll do that maybe Wednesday. The 40 grainers have been shot, but not yet to the degree that I have planned. What I think I see developing is that the best shooting is with the FL sized cases. Second best is a tough call between neck sized cases and partial sized cases. I believe that what we've been hearing from BartB and others must be correct, in that the necks must be getting pulled a bit off line with the neck sizing and partial resizing. And partial resizing with a 223 case does cause the shoulder to be pushed forward, so you're crushing the case into the chamber. That isn't an issue with tapered cases, but it is an issue with 223 cases and others with less taper.

So the early and unofficial bottom line is that I expect (though I haven't gotten my new Redding die yet) is that a FL sized case with the bushing method of sizing the neck ought to be the way to best accuracy. We'll see. And I suppose that Lee die should work quite well also.

And I love that Timney trigger.
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Old December 3, 2012, 07:22 PM   #33
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You working with the right rifle, bullet & twist. Let us know how it turned out. Have fun, Be Safe Chris
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Old December 4, 2012, 12:33 PM   #34
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Good idea. But shoot all 20 of each load in one group. Results will be 3 times better than a few 5- shot groups.
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Old December 4, 2012, 02:35 PM   #35
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Man, I thought I got techinical, but you guys have me blown out of the water.

Then again, none of the rifles I shoot have tight enough tolerances that some of items discussed here would honestly make a difference.

I used to neck size, but had an issue with some brass not wanting to chamber smoothly. Went back to FL resizing, but with a shoulder bump.

Shoulder bump - .003" back from measured chamber (measured 10 fired cases from the rifle - all cooled - and averaged out to get a chamber dimension.

Brass OAL/Trim Length - .001" short of chamber using a chamber plug to measure actual chamber dimension. Surprisingly, my trim length is significantly different than book lengths (all longer by several thousands to hundredths).

Neck turn every case as well to eliminate any issue of canted rounds once chambered.

Granted, I have never taken any of my rifles to get the actions trued - which if you are going deep into some of the items discussed, you better ensure you have a true/square action or everything is pretty much for naught. I enjoy reloading and have noticed significant improvements in groups with doing just the items above.

Last edited by schmellba99; December 4, 2012 at 02:52 PM.
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Old December 4, 2012, 05:34 PM   #36
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I could shoot em all in one group, and had considered that, but was afraid that I'd shoot up and lose my aiming point (tiny bullseye). Without the aiming point, I'd lose what little precision that I have. But...since I'm not really hitting the bullseye, but just above it by an inch or so, then I guess it won't matter. Yep, I'll shoot all 20 at once. I've found that accuracy is best in the first 15 rounds, so I'll clean every 10 and fire one fouler, though this rifle doesn't seem to change POI when clean. I hadn't known that before.

Shmellba, my limitations of old shooter and sporter weight barrel might make this comparison meaningless, but I will continue with this. It interests me, and with the weather being so hot, I don't feel like hunting. And most of us are just hunters and shooters like me, and with sporter weight barrels. So we might learn something. And if I can't get answers with the 223, I might drag out the 220. That old gun will really shoot and was set up for me by a real pro. It's just so darn loud that my wife will be on my case well before I've shot all the rounds I'll need to shoot. So...I'm taking the wise path for now and using that 223.

It's good to be retired. A bad day at shooting beats a good day at work.
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Old December 4, 2012, 10:49 PM   #37
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HiBC:
Quote:
Wild guess,the full length resize is giving the clearance for your round to find its own center as it expands.
A common misconception.

All bottleneck cases headspacing on their shoulder perfectly center their shoulder in the chamber shoulder when the firing pin drives them there before the primer detonates. In many rifles, case shoulder's well centered in the chamber shoulder as soon as the bolt closes. Doesn't matter how the case is sized; even new cases do this.
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Old December 5, 2012, 11:34 AM   #38
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I recently learned Berger resizes their fired cases with Redding full bushing dies. Same as Sierra Bullets.

If someone wants to contact other bullet makers learning what dies they use, please post their info.
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Old December 5, 2012, 01:27 PM   #39
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Again, one more time, I have a rifle that shoots one hole groups, I had another rifle that shoot patterns (like a shot gun), the rifle that shot patterns was a Winchester Model 70 chambered to 300 Win Mag, I shot the same ammo in both rifles, one more time, one shot one hole groups, the Winchester shot patterns,

Winchester suggested I shoot the Model 70 a few hundred more times, at that time I was up to 120 rounds, 6 boxes, no matter what die was used there was no way the cases were going to be restored to minimum length/full length sized, no matter the brand of die, I have RCBS, RCBS small base, RCBS BAR dies, I have Lyman dies, I have Hornady dies etc.. Again, I ask Winchester for a chamber that fit my dies or a set of Winchester dies that fit their chamber.

Back to ‘all you got to do is do what Sierra does and now Berger, not often but I have formed cases as in 20 to different lengths and mailed them to shooters/collectors/reloaders with the instructions they attempt chambering each case from the shortest to the longest, after determining the length of the longest case that would allow the bolt to close they were asked to call me and or email. All they had to do was tell me which case allowed the bolt to close with the slights resistance to bolt closing, I matched the number to an index in thousandths.

In Northern Alabama a collector of Mausers could not find a smith that knew how to answer his question, all he wanted to know was the length of the chamber from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber in thousandths, he has 25+ Mausers, a few go back to .318, most are .323, they, the smith of Northern Alabama, said it could not be done and they did not have a gage for the .318. Anyhow, he called and informed me he had 2 rifles that chambered the +.020 cases without resistance to bolt closing. The +.020 were .020” longer from the head of the case to the shoulder than a minimum length/full length sized case or to put it another way there was + .020” difference in the length of his chamber and and the length of new, factory loaded ammo. He decided to hang the two rifles on the wall and not fire them. He also had a few that would allow the bolt to close on cases that were longer .010” shorter than the chamber when measured from the usual place, BUT for the most part most of his chambers fell into the category of go-gage length.

He was thinking about reloading for all those Mausers, the last time I heard from him he was going to Tennessee to visit a reloader/collector to get help. I can only guess the cases I sent that were different length and could be used to measure both .318 and .323 Mausers wore them out.

POINT! ? If I sent sized cases to Sierra and Berger would they be willing to start chambering the cases until they felt resistance to bolt closing. Back to two different rifles with the same? chambers shooting the same ammo, one shoots one hole groups, the other shoots patterns, then there is my M1917 Remington with the recoil lug on the barrel, not the receiver. When it comes to difference in accuracy when comparing M1917s the M1917 with the lug on the barrel is more accurate than all the rest of my M1917 30/06 chambered rifles ‘and’ that includes my 03s and A3s.

Bart B. if I am to take you seriously all I have to do is use Sierra bullets or Berger bullets and use a Redding die?? You do not know how the chamber in the test rifle is chambered, you do not know the length of the chamber, when Hornady test 7mm57 ammo they use a 7mm57 Mauser rifle, they claim that rifle makes the shooter look good.

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Old December 5, 2012, 01:39 PM   #40
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I have little interest in what dies a reloader prefers, my only interest in “HOW THE DIE IS USED”, it goes back to the old man that was retired because he was too old, he maintained part of the powder grid. After he was retired something went wrong, all the light went out and his replacement was swatting bullets, the city called the old retiree and ask for help and instructed him to bill them.

The bill was $10.001 dollars, being curious the city ask him why so much and they wanted to know how he came up with the $1.00 amount, then they said he really did not earn the money because all he did was tap the connection with a hammer, and he replied:

True, I billed you $1.00 for tapping the connection, I billed you $10.000 for knowing where to tap.

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Old December 5, 2012, 03:55 PM   #41
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I would guess since Redding is making seating plug for the Berger VLD bullets that Berger would use their dies.

http://www.bergerbullets.com/redding...r-vld-bullets/
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Old December 5, 2012, 04:47 PM   #42
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More information...

Today I took all my loaded rounds out to the bench and put up all new targets. It was a cool day with little wind, and thankfully the barrel cooled quickly. I cleaned the bore prior to shooting and after every 10 rounds (not counting the fouler fired after each cleaning. I used the usual patches and a stiff plastic bore brush from Sinclair, and cleaning was done with Butch's Bore Shine and was done to approximately the same level of cleaning each time. I slowly fired 5 rounds, let the barrel cool to ambient temperature each time, fired 5 more and then cleaned. I fired all the partial resized cases first, followed by the neck sized cases, then the FL sized cases, and then shot the FL sized cases that were not sorted in any way, were unprepped and had random headstamps (Win, Hornady, Remington). All shooting was done on my 100 yard range and from my sturdy shooting bench. Front and rear bags were used.

Note that I don't yet have the Redding FL bushing die, and I finally decided that I needed to also look at the Lee Collet Neck Sizing Die, so I ordered one of those too. It'll be at least a week before I have them and can load up and shoot more ammo.

And thank goodness for the low recoil 223, and again...I love that Timney trigger.

The results were:

Worst - Partial Resizing. Maybe with tapered cases I'd have had better results, but this case isn't tapered enough. The 'all of the bullets group' that BartB suggested showed a group of 1 1/4 inches by 1 1/2 inches. Just an overall loose group with little to recommend it. Since I shot this group first, I was thinking that maybe my memory of this load shooting pretty good was not a sober memory. But, I checked my notes and the previous good groups had been neck sized.

Slightly better - Neck Sizing. This gave a group of 1 inch by 3/4 inch. One flyer kept it from being 3/4 by 3/4, and half of the bullets were in one ragged and elongated hole.

Slightly better - FL Sizing. This gave a round group of 3/4 inches center to center, and there was maybe 1/4 of the bullets sharing holes with other bullets. It was a better looking group than the neck sized group.

And the random headstamp unprepped cases, shot a group of 1 inch by 1 1/2 inches, with the long measurement being horizontal. That was better than I actually expected, and doesn't include one called flyer. If included, that would have made the group 1 inch by 1.75 inches.

I'm thinking, based on what I saw today, that BartB's suggestion on using the Redding FL bushing die is probably the way to go. But, there's a chance that the Lee Collet Neck Die could do as well. I'm very interested in what I'll find from that comparison.

Maybe these experienced long range competition guys really know what they are talking about. I thought I knew what I was talking about, but now I'm questioning those old assumptions of mine. It's a learning experience and I hope this has been of interest to you so far. More data to follow.

And the caveat...this is just me and my gun and my bench and my reloading practices. I think this info should apply to most of us, but that's just an opinion and not necessarily a fact. And, just to say it, my rifle shoots the Nosler 40 gr BT a good bit better than it does the 65 grain GK, but I had started this with the Sierra GK and had a bunch of ammo loaded, so I continued with that bullet. This is about a comparison of resizing methods and not about the absolute smallest group I can shoot with this rifle.
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Old December 5, 2012, 04:59 PM   #43
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Shmellba, my limitations of old shooter and sporter weight barrel might make this comparison meaningless, but I will continue with this. It interests me, and with the weather being so hot, I don't feel like hunting. And most of us are just hunters and shooters like me, and with sporter weight barrels. So we might learn something. And if I can't get answers with the 223, I might drag out the 220. That old gun will really shoot and was set up for me by a real pro. It's just so darn loud that my wife will be on my case well before I've shot all the rounds I'll need to shoot. So...I'm taking the wise path for now and using that 223.
I don't begrudge you one single bit - if anything it's a great excuse to get out and put some rounds down range. Hard to say anything negative about that at all.

I only made the comment because the ammo is only part of the equation - you can have the best and most consistent ammo ever produced, but if your action is out of true you are going to get less than stellar results. And considering some of the points of discussion here, I think about the realistic break even point for me personally.

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Old December 5, 2012, 05:04 PM   #44
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Hm.

It's a little late, but I'd point out that alternating between groups would have better eliminated the variables.
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Old December 5, 2012, 07:16 PM   #45
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Brian, I considered that, but figured if I cleaned at a regular interval and waited between groups until the rifle barrel had gone cold again (which I did), it would be a good test. And I did FL last, thinking that if I had fouled the barrel too much with all that shooting and possibly not enough cleaning, then it would impact the FL test the most. But, the FL group was still smallest. And today was nearly a perfect day to shoot. Minimal breeze and cool.

And I ordered that Lee die today because you, and others probably, would like that as part of the test. And, as with all the other comparing I've been doing, the Lee die needs to be part of my testing. I've enjoyed this, though it hasn't shown the results I expected to see. I burned a lot of ammo today, and thank goodness it wasn't my firm kicking 270.
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Old December 5, 2012, 07:55 PM   #46
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I look forward to hearing your results and, just in case I come across wrong, I'm not trying to be critical, just offering suggestions. I appreciate the effort, time and money you're putting into this.
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Old December 7, 2012, 09:07 PM   #47
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Again, one more time, I have a rifle that shoots one hole groups, I had another rifle that shoot patterns (like a shot gun), the rifle that shot patterns was a Winchester Model 70 chambered to 300 Win Mag, I shot the same ammo in both rifles, one more time, one shot one hole groups, the Winchester shot patterns,
I am really trying to understand the point you are trying to make....

You have a rifle that shoots birdshot groups, and another, of a different make, shoots one hole? And you automatically attribute it the chamber/case length? I must be missing your point, because it could be innumerable other things including those as obvious as a crap barrel, or out-of-true action... or that rifle just doesn't like that ammo. Are you saying that all rifles should shoot the same ammo with identical accuracy? We all know chambers vary, and are still within SAAMI specs. So?

Many long-range precision shooter use a chamber gauge in the interest of not trimming their brass until it is necessary. Why trim brass if you've still got throat clearance, regardless of SAAMI spec.

Please re-state your point more clearly for me if you don't mind...guess I'm having a senior moment (pre-senior)....
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Old December 8, 2012, 07:47 AM   #48
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603country any chance you can post pics of the groups?
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Old December 8, 2012, 08:47 PM   #49
603Country
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1stMar, let me finish all the shooting and testing, and then I might do it. I still have the Lee collet neck sizing die and the Redding FL bushing die to use to load ammo for testing. If I stopped the test right now, without trying those dies, the best (smallest) overall group goes to the Redding FL sizing (non-bushing) die. BUT the neck sized group, although somewhat bigger horizontally, had more bullets in the middle of the group in one ragged and elongated hole. Very interesting. I wish I knew what that meant. If it means that my NK sizing die is pulling the necks slightly off line on some of the cases, then maybe the Lee collet die is going to alllow me to shoot really great groups. But, so far nothing has turned out like I had expected, so who knows what we'll see from those dies. I do expect and hope for slightly smaller groups, but realistically this is an off the shelf Ruger Hawkeye stainless with a Timney trigger and a Hogue stock with the aluminum bedding channel and a Leupold 6x18 VX2 scope. No way it's gonna put all the rounds in one hole, but if the 3/4 inch group drops to 1/2 inch I'd be thrilled - but I just can't really see that happening. But stay tuned.
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Old December 9, 2012, 05:53 AM   #50
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Appreciate you doing this I plan to do a similar test though not as thorough as yours, I have lee collet dies as well as rcbs and redding fl dies. Bart b has got me thinking as well. Runout is always lower for me when using the lee, but Bart has pointed out neck centering on the shoulder is better with fl dies. I have a McMillan stock coming for my 06 , it has a hart barrel and is as close to a highly tuned rifle as I'm going to get, so no excuses other then, me weather and my loads.

I noticed the one flyer kept you second group from being equal to the fl group, and the group had more rounds touching.. Hate to ask, but how did that one shot feel? Possible it was wind?
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