The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: General Handgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 28, 2012, 11:09 AM   #1
CCCLVII
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 16, 2012
Location: Idaho
Posts: 284
Why did they go with the 9mm bullets in the 357 sig?

I know I may be a bit slow here but I recently found out that the 357 sig uses 9mm bullets and not 357 bullets. I am wondering what the reason is. For me half of the fun of the 357 magnum is the bullet verity. Without much looking you can find factory loaded ammo with ammo ranging from 110 grain to 200 grain. I have seen reloads from 90 grains up to 230 grains.

Unfortunately for the 357 sig is limited to 150ish grains at the heavy end.

I am just wondering why they went this route?
__________________
Always looking for a good hunt!
CCCLVII is offline  
Old November 28, 2012, 11:53 AM   #2
marv
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 10, 1999
Location: South coast of Indiana
Posts: 112
9mm bullets are designed to feed in semi autos. .357 mag bullets are not. Also mfrs are already tooled up to bore and rifle barrels in 9mm. Just MHO.
__________________
Too old to fight. Knees won't let me run.
Good reasons to carry.
marv is offline  
Old November 28, 2012, 01:06 PM   #3
sheepman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 26, 2007
Location: Las Vegas NV
Posts: 372
The 357 sig was developed from a 40 S&W case. The short neck and smaller case do not work with heavy bullets like the 357 mag uses. Heavy bullets (longer) would create very hi pressure if loaded to the required overall length. To shoot heavy bullets you would have to start with a 10 mm case, but then you would not be able to use guns designed for the 9mm or 40 S&W cartage length. The 357 sig is very good at what it was designed to do, compete with the 125 gr. 357 mag load.
__________________
The best gun is the one you have when you really need one
sheepman is offline  
Old November 28, 2012, 01:08 PM   #4
DPris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 19, 2004
Posts: 4,207
The .357 SIG caliber was never intended to match the .357 Mag across the board. It was designed to approximately duplicate what many consider the most effective anti-personnel .357 Mag load- the 125-grain JHP.

There's a little room for bullet weight variations in the SIG caliber, but nothing like the Mag.

Denis
DPris is offline  
Old November 28, 2012, 01:10 PM   #5
pgdion
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 22, 2010
Location: MPLS, MN
Posts: 1,096
Here's what I don't get. Why the .357 sig at all? Why not just shoot the .40sw?
__________________
597 VTR, because there's so many cans and so little time!
pgdion is offline  
Old November 28, 2012, 01:22 PM   #6
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 10,600
There is no reason not to SHOOT a .40 with light fast bullet.
But Sigarms and the ammo companies wanted something else to SELL.
The .357x125 revolver had a great reputation so they offer a similar autopistol for the Internet Age.
Jim Watson is offline  
Old November 28, 2012, 01:48 PM   #7
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 35,248
The .357 Sig was originally designed for one purpose in mind -- to give police who were still holding on to their .357 Magnum revolvers a semi-auto cartridge that would emulate the performance of one round -- Remington's 125-gr. semi-jacketed hollow point, which at that time had a well proven track record as an excellent fight stopper.

It wasn't designed for versatility, or for sporting purposes. It was conceived of and promoted as a police and defensive cartridge.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old November 29, 2012, 05:57 PM   #8
SRH78
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 437
Quote:
There is no reason not to SHOOT a .40 with light fast bullet.
There is one, especially for law enforcement. That reason is penetration, specifically hard barriers.
__________________
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin
SRH78 is offline  
Old November 29, 2012, 10:27 PM   #9
insaneranger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 6, 2011
Posts: 208
Quote:
Here's what I don't get. Why the .357 sig at all? Why not just shoot the .40sw?
I'm a .40 fan & IMO it's one of the best all around calibers, but the .357sig does have a penetration advantage, especially when it comes to sheet metal and automotive glass. Right now the .40 & .357sig are two of the most popular LE calibers in use in the U.S. The TN Highway Patrol, for example, now uses .357sig exclusively in their service pistols.
insaneranger is offline  
Old November 30, 2012, 12:57 AM   #10
Falcon642
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 29, 2010
Posts: 314
Quote:
I'm a .40 fan & IMO it's one of the best all around calibers, but the .357sig does have a penetration advantage, especially when it comes to sheet metal and automotive glass.
I'm also a big .40 fan, and I have to admit the .357 sig is a little flatter shooting than the .40 giving it a trajectory advantage as well.

Having said that, when something goes bump in the night I'll still pick my Beretta 96 over any other handgun in the world, but thats just me .
Falcon642 is offline  
Old November 30, 2012, 01:19 AM   #11
Creeper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2008
Location: Woooooshington
Posts: 1,797
The .357 Sig round is exactly what sheepman, DPris, Mike, SRH78 and insaneranger, in their various ways, said it is. Designed by Ted Rowe of Sig Sauer and Federal Cartridge to replicate the performance of the deservedly popular 125gr .357 mag loading... and to provide superior hard barrier penetration from a duty grade, semi-auto handgun, something the .357 Sig does quite well.
__________________
Shoulder Drive Nicholson Club
Creeper is offline  
Old November 30, 2012, 01:24 AM   #12
SPEMack618
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 21, 2010
Location: Central Georgia
Posts: 1,376
Is the 125 grn duplicating round in .357 Sig what the USSS issues?

From a purely marketing, mall ninja, have no use for it, but man I think it's neat, stand point that is why I would want a .357 Sig.
__________________
NRA Life Member
"Had King Kong showed up in Texas, Frank Hamer would have taken him down with his Model 8 in .35 Remington...well, he was kind of big, so maybe his BAR"
SPEMack618 is offline  
Old November 30, 2012, 01:48 AM   #13
tipoc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2004
Location: Redwood City, Ca.
Posts: 2,194
Quote:
The .357x125 revolver had a great reputation so they offer a similar autopistol for the Internet Age.
Not to be nitpicky but the .357 Sig was introduced in 1994. I think most would place that a few years before the beginnings of the "internet age".

The 40S&W was introduced in 1990. One of the objections to the 10mm as a service round was that the guns needed to be large and powerful ones. The first S&W guns chambered in 10mm for the FBI were larger and heavier than their 9mm sidearms. So if you could shorten the 10mm to a round that could fit in the same size guns as the 9mm did. Well they thought, you might have something. They did and it took off like a rocket.

The Sig came 4 years later and was chambered in the Sig P229. Since the idea of creating a round that would work in guns the same size as the 9mm had proven so successful with the 40 S&W... well why not do it again. The idea for it came from the 30 Luger round and efforts like the .38-45. There are two basic ways to make a round more powerful: stretch it out, but the 10mm already existed, or place a smaller bullet in a necked down case. That would work and it did. The 9mm bullet was a natural. It was heck of fast.

They could have called it the 9mm Magnum, or the 9mm Super but in an interesting coincidence a couple of fellas wrote a book promoting the "One Shot Stop" concept and promoting the idea that some of the 125 gr. loads for the .357 Magnum were better stoppers. So the name .357 Sig was easy as well and so was a promotion campaign.

But the .357 Sig languished some in the shadow of it's bigger brother. It did so for a number of years. Part of it may have been that the 9mm bullets broke up on impact at higher velocities. It did not provide better barrier penetration over what they had. It took awhile to work that out. Part may have been the bottle necked shape which, in the U.S., have never been too popular in handguns. Part may have been that the 40 was new, etc. But it did languish.

Interest in the round stepped up some after a few agencies picked it up. Seems about 2 years ago the ammo manufacturers began a major push to spark interest in it. More articles in gun mags and threads begun on gun forums.

It's a good round and needs no extra hyping, though some do, and make exaggerated claims for it. It may gain some in popularity.

tipoc
tipoc is offline  
Old December 1, 2012, 05:55 PM   #14
insaneranger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 6, 2011
Posts: 208
Quote:
...Having said that, when something goes bump in the night I'll still pick my Beretta 96 over any other handgun in the world, but thats just me
Man, I miss my 96 especially since Beretta discontinued them. Right now my go to HD pistol is my .45 Beretta Cougar.
insaneranger is offline  
Old December 1, 2012, 09:19 PM   #15
stevedscross
Member
 
Join Date: June 5, 2010
Location: Michigan
Posts: 46
I should also point out a couple things that no one else brought up. First the .357 sig uses the .355 bullet, but the 125 grain Gold Dot it the type used in the .357 magnum modified to .355. The .355 bullet 124 gr Gold Dot it the 9mm type. The two type though differant are meant to operate at differant velocities.

Second. On an all-things-being-equal basis the .357 is a more accurate round than the .40 S&W which despite being a fine round it not know for accuracy. Now don't write and tell me that your .40 S&W is super accurate, because that's not what I am saying. Take two of he same gun, put a .357 sig barrel in one and a .40 in the other. Work up a good load for each using the same type of bullet, etc, etc and the .357 sig will be more accurate.

Third a little thing called Sectional Density. If you are shooting a 135 gr .40, and a 135 gr .357 sig (though I have not seen one I am sure there is one somewhere) the .357 bullet will be longer, this means more bearing surface in the rifling, and less air resistance passing through air. When the bullets hit their targets the bullet with the greater SD will penetrate deeper.

Fourth Flatter shooting. A person with a little experience and some practice can easily hit a paper plate at one hundred yards with the .357 sig. I have seen it done and done in myself. We had a number of people at the range try and hit a 100 yard target with the caliber and most were able to hit the target in only 1-3 shots. we tried this will the .45, .40, and 9mm and though a few people could tag the target after a few rounds by walking them in most just wasted the ammo. I have total confidence that i could head shoot a Terrorist, or insurgent at 50 yards with the handgun (I have several .357 sigs A Glock 32, Glock 22 w/ conversion, and sig P226) I like the most, which is in this caliber my P226.

Strangely the .357 sig does not act in the same manner as teh old .357 125 grain load. The Magnum 125's would penetrate about eight inches and fragment, dumping a large amount of energy into the target. The .357 load enters, expands and pentrates (with the 125 gr Gold Dot) about 14 inches and as a large permanate and tempoary wound cavity. So though the external ballistics of the two loads are very close, their therminal ballitsics differ, yet both are very good at stopping bad guys. Bringing the .40 S&W into the mix its also performs (with 135gr loads) in a simular fasion to both of the .357 loads on the terminal end of things. The only differance that of the three loads the .357 sig does what it does even if passing into a car through glass, where as teh 135 .40 and the 125 .357 magnum both dump lots of energy and break up when hitting auto glass. so for the average person any of these three loads will do a great job (or as well as a handgun round can) in most situations. The penetration through auto glass however is why many police departments went to the .357 sig load. Just a simple fact that alot of police shootings happen around cars.

Since your life if the one on the line the choice of which load you carry is yours. I would feel comfortable with any of the three. I hope I helped informed your decision.
stevedscross is offline  
Old December 1, 2012, 09:52 PM   #16
Rainbow Demon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 27, 2012
Posts: 397
The .357 Sig is one of many cartridges whos nominal bullet diameter is not based on actual bullet diameter. The .303 Savage is another, though a few of the early .303 Savage rifles had bores closer to .310-.311.
The various .221, .223, .224, etc cartridges that all use the same bullet size are examples, while the .22 Savage HiPower uses a .228 bullet but is simply refered to as a .22.
If they'd called the .357 Sig a 9mm magnum rimless it wouldn't have had the same level of sales appeal and would be easily confused with the 9mm Winchester magnum, which is a very different cartridge altogether.
Rainbow Demon is offline  
Old December 1, 2012, 10:13 PM   #17
Archie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 26, 2000
Location: Hastings, Nebrasksa - the Heartland!
Posts: 2,081
Three Five Seven, the answer is probably too simple...

The .357 SIG is a European designed round. Which means the designers think in millimeters, not caliber (hundredths).

For contrast, the .357-.44 Bain & Davis was a .44 Magnum case necked down to - no peeking - .357" diameter bullets.

SIG was already making .355"-.356" bore diameter barrels. Why bother with different barrel making equipment to cut a bore only .001" to .003" larger?
__________________
There ain't no free lunch, except Jesus.
Archie

Check out updated journal at http://oldmanmontgomery.wordpress.com/
Archie is offline  
Old December 1, 2012, 10:46 PM   #18
Mystro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 26, 2004
Location: Central Pa.
Posts: 1,054
Most just go with a +p 9mm and be done with it. The main selling point to the departments when the 357Sig came out was its feeding reliability for being a bottle neck cartrage.
The 40 and 9mm are still the top LE caliber. The 357Sig and 45GAP are niche calibers that I would bet will fade away like so many others before it.
__________________
"I'm a good guy with a gun" What do I care if I give up some freedom or rights?....The Goverment will take care of me. This kind of thinking is now in the majority and it should concern you.

"Ask not what you can do for your country, but what free entitlements you can bleed from your country"
Mystro is offline  
Old December 1, 2012, 11:25 PM   #19
armsmaster270
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2008
Location: California
Posts: 1,924
The secret service as well as the air marshals have adopted the 357Sig.
__________________
http://www.armsmaster.net-a.googlepages.com
http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/f...aster270/Guns/
Retired LE, M.P., Sr. M.P. Investigator F.B.I. Trained Rangemaster/Firearms Instructor & Armorer, Presently Forensic Document Examiner for D.H.S.
armsmaster270 is offline  
Old December 2, 2012, 03:45 AM   #20
Redhawk5.5+P+
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 4, 2012
Location: NV
Posts: 743
I like to see you load a 200g FN HC in a .357 sig shell and make it feed in anything.
Redhawk5.5+P+ is offline  
Old December 2, 2012, 06:37 AM   #21
BlueTrain
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 5,809
I don't know who made the first ammunition for the .357 Sig but Sig doesn't make anything in .357 S&W Magnum, do they? So I think Archie had the right answer.

The .30 Luger was not developed from the 9mm Luger; it was the other way around.
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands!
Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag,
and return us to our own beloved homes!
Buy War Bonds.
BlueTrain is offline  
Old December 2, 2012, 08:54 AM   #22
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 35,248
"The .357 SIG is a European designed round. Which means the designers think in millimeters, not caliber (hundredths)."

Actually, no.

The round was conceived of in the United States by SIG USA personnel and then developed in conjunction with Federal Cartridge, a US company.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old December 2, 2012, 09:21 AM   #23
FALPhil
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 10, 2007
Location: Racoon City
Posts: 933
Quote:
The 40 and 9mm are still the top LE caliber. The 357Sig and 45GAP are niche calibers that I would bet will fade away like so many others before it.
We can only hope.

Personally, I find the 9x23 Winchester a far superior round to either the 357 Sig or the 40 S&W. The case is 0.035 inches longer than the proprietary Sig round and 0.05 inches longer than the 10mm Short. It fits fine in a grip the size of a 1911, but is probably a tad too long for the smaller 9x19/357 Sig frames. Even so, compared to a 357 Mag or 45ACP, it is much more pleasant to shoot.
FALPhil is offline  
Old December 3, 2012, 01:13 AM   #24
armsmaster270
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2008
Location: California
Posts: 1,924
I have Sig 220/.45 Auto, 226/.40 and 357sig & 228/9mm. I choose to carry the 357sig.
__________________
http://www.armsmaster.net-a.googlepages.com
http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/f...aster270/Guns/
Retired LE, M.P., Sr. M.P. Investigator F.B.I. Trained Rangemaster/Firearms Instructor & Armorer, Presently Forensic Document Examiner for D.H.S.
armsmaster270 is offline  
Old December 3, 2012, 01:49 AM   #25
Falcon642
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 29, 2010
Posts: 314
Quote:
where as teh 135 .40 and the 125 .357 magnum both dump lots of energy and break up when hitting auto glass.
Talking about how the .40 performs with bullet weights under 155grs is like talking about how a football team performs with its backup quarterback (Jets and Steelers wins today notwithstanding )

When loaded with 180gr HST ammo, the .40 can penetrate a windshield, expand to 0.75 inches while penetrating 14 inches of ballistic gel with 92% weight retention on the bullet.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De...BW_5_27_09.pdf

When compared to 180 gr HST ammo, the .357 sig still has a small penetration advantage but the .40 has an expansion advantage.

The .357s sig maintains its advantage of a flatter trajectory; but really if we are talking about cops engaging bad guys at 100 yards they will probably get the AR-15 out of the squad car.
Falcon642 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2013 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12716 seconds with 9 queries