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Old November 30, 2012, 08:57 PM   #26
zombietactics
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
... Flight can be treated as evidence of guilt. ...
It might be splitting hairs, but there is a difference between "flight" and "not remaining on scene".

Flight generally means an attempt to avoid capture, or avoid association with an event.

It's pretty difficult to use "not remaining on scene" as evidence of guilt when you've called the police to report the incident, identified yourself and indicated that you'll be waiting for officers to arrive, having taken refuge at a diner two blocks away.
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Old November 30, 2012, 09:03 PM   #27
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Exactly my point, Zombie. You leave the immediate area of an armed encounter, if possible, for the same reason you don't sit in the middle of the interstate after being involved in an accident. So you don't get hit again.

I've got near 30 years behind a badge and I would not consider such a defensive repositioning anything but common sense.
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Old November 30, 2012, 09:09 PM   #28
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombietactics
It might be splitting hairs, but there is a difference between "flight" and "not remaining on scene".

Flight generally means an attempt to avoid capture, or avoid association with an event.

It's pretty difficult to use "not remaining on scene" as evidence of guilt when you've called the police to report the incident, identified yourself and indicated that you'll be waiting for officers to arrive, having taken refuge at a diner two blocks away.
That is very true. And there's a difference between what you just described and:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarge
..make like roadrunner and get the hell outta there...
If it's someone's intent to give meaningful advice about removing himself to a place of comparative safety and reporting the incident from there, as you have done, he really should be clear and complete, as you have been. Just suggesting that one "take a powder" is too easily misunderstood and leaves too much important information out.
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Old December 1, 2012, 05:58 PM   #29
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Maybe it's just the way I read it, but you do know that a 360 degree scan does not include a 360 sweep of the weapon?
I've been involved in 2 shootings while on duty. Both times included a 360 degree scan with the weapon at low ready all the way around after the shootings. Why would you do it any differently and not be looking where your weapon is pointing?
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Old December 1, 2012, 07:08 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 45_auto
I've been involved in 2 shootings while on duty. Both times included a 360 degree scan with the weapon at low ready all the way around after the shootings....
A good time to use position sul:
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Old December 1, 2012, 08:02 PM   #31
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And god bless you sir for posting pics of sul done correctly.
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Old December 1, 2012, 08:40 PM   #32
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No way I'd reholster blind after a serious incident. Every time I've been in a really hairy situation the adrenaline dump has affected my motor skills enough that I wouldn't take it for granted that I could do something as "simple" as holstering my firearm.

Does that mean I take my eyes off my surroundings? I guess - or maybe I move to a safer place - I don't know. But I will not reholster without paying some attention to what I'm doing.



The stuff you can do on "automatic" becomes a lot less automatic in a high stress situation.
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Old December 1, 2012, 09:45 PM   #33
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What ISN'T mentioned in 'classes'...

One of the primary rules of range safety is "Keep the muzzle pointed downrange, or in a safe direction."

Great idea. For whatever reason, I just had to draw down on a malefactor posing an immediate, deadly physical threat in the main passageway in the local mall. Which direction is 'safe'? Could someone answer that for me? In about forty-five years of carrying a sidearm, the only answer I have is to point it 'up' or 'down'. North, South, East and West are all taken up with bystanders, potential victims and other bits one does not want to shoot without serious provocation. Mr. Ettin's photographic suggestion seems reasonable.

Good heavens, yes; scan the whole area to make sure the malefactor doesn't have a partner, a safety man, a getaway driver or nanny in attendance. One might also make mental notes about witnesses, if possible.

Don't point the weapon at anyone intentionally - to single out that person - unless that seems to be the 'significant other' in the malefactor's scheme. But 'turn' one must just to check the area.

Holster without looking? Great idea, again. Easier if one is carrying an open type belt holster; not so easy if carrying concealed. I commonly wear an open top holster with retention strap under a jacket. I can holster without looking, but I have to feel around a bit. Normally there are no bonus points awarded for 'speed of return to holster'. Don't get panicked about it. Just get the pistol put away when it is prudent to do so. Preferably without discharging any more rounds.

This may include moving to what in boxing is called a 'neutral corner'. Not 'gone', but away from the open and in a position to maintain an eye on the scene. One does not want the casual passerby to pick up or move evidence, like the malefactor's weapon. But as previous noted by Mr. Ettin, don't imply by action an intent to 'flee'. Obviously, this is colored by a lingering firefight or other malefactors present.

Normally, one will meet the local authorities shortly - who knows how long - after such an event. One should call for both LEOs and EMTs and give a brief regarding what happened. How many wounded, what sort of wounds (in general and to the best of one's ability; not everyone speaks anatomy or trauma care) and if hostilities have concluded or not. If hostilities continue, brief dispatch about location of villain or villains and from which direction approach is safest.

When the authorities show up, expect to be handcuffed and disarmed. Just expect it. Have your license and ID somewhere handy - like a shirt pocket - so as not to 'dig' for it in pockets. When they ask, tell them where your sidearm is located. If they are nervous, they probably don't want you getting it out for them.

Surviving a shooting is more than just shooting ability. One must not panic and the best way NOT to panic is the same method of not jerking the trigger; concentrate on what needs to be done. One needs to work this out prior to the encounter.

Frankly, I would probably need to use a restroom. I tend to overactive bladder when emotions run high.
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Old December 1, 2012, 10:00 PM   #34
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My only problem with sul (thank you for the pictures) is adding it to all the habits of low ready I've spent so much time on...
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Old December 1, 2012, 11:14 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archie
One of the primary rules of range safety is "Keep the muzzle pointed downrange, or in a safe direction."

Great idea. For whatever reason, I just had to draw down on a malefactor posing an immediate, deadly physical threat in the main passageway in the local mall. Which direction is 'safe'? Could someone answer that for me?...
First, as practical defensive pistol craft began to evolve, the old NRA type range safety rules (like "Always keep your muzzle downrange or in a safe direction"), best adapted to target shooting on cold ranges, began to be supplanted by safe gun handling rules better adapted to action shooting on hot ranges and gun handling out in the real world (like "Never let your muzzle cover anything you're not willing to destroy." and "Know your target and what's behind it."). Then we saw the development of gun handling techniques like sul adapted to allow moving safely with a loaded gun in hand in a crowded environment, in a confined area or in a group. So some of these concerns are answered by further training.
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Old December 2, 2012, 08:59 AM   #36
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Thanks for all the great replies,,,I can tell there are a lot of much more experienced shooters than I am on here,,,especially in combat pistol training.

And that is the best way to learn,,,from someone more experienced who is willing to share and teach.

Great post on how to safely do a 360 degree sweep of your perimeter where there might be friendlies in the environment.

From everyone's posts I have revised my thinking,,,to me this is not a hard and fast rule it depends on the circumstances,,,if after a confrontation or a shooting you feel confident in reholstering your firearm without looking while keeping your eyes downrange for danger more power to you that is probably the best way,,,however if after a confrontation or a shooting, where every nerve in every cell in your body might be firing, and you have been extremely vigilant in clearing the area and you have possibly attained safe cover if there is any and you feel the need to take your time and be extremely careful and maybe even looking while reholstering,,,I see nothing wrong with that also.
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Old December 2, 2012, 10:43 AM   #37
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I'm with jammer six on sul, I don't have to worry about shooting a fellow officer during an entry, so good old low ready is just fine.

For the folks that say they need to see their holster, I guess you never carry with a SOB holster?
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Old December 2, 2012, 12:58 PM   #38
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When I first saw position sul, I thought that was the dumbest thing I had ever seen.

This doesn't happen very often, but I was wrong.

I've since tried it, and it gets me on target- accurately- much more quickly than a low ready. And if you do it correctly, it's almost impossible to point the gun at your feet, as I had originally thought.

As for reholstering without looking- I've seen people get cover garments, or just their regular garments tucked into a holster by accident, just during range conditions, not under stress. Without looking, you risk that something might catch the trigger and fire it in your holster. This might be a cover garment, a damaged holster, or some other foreign object.

With looking, you risk that another attack is going to happen in the second or two you look down to ensure your holster is clear. This is after you've already determined the situation is safe.

Either way, your gun is now holstered. If another threat appears after that point, your reaction time is going to be about two seconds anyway. So, really the two seconds you're looking at your holster doesn't hurt your reaction time any worse than having the gun holstered. IMO, if you're secure enough to holster, you're secure enough to look to ensure your holster is clear.

In either case- snagging a trigger vs. an attack while holstering- the risk is so minimal, you could go either way with it. I think the bigger risk is that the situation is not safe after you determined it was. If you really want to do something to enhance your safety in the aftermath of a gunfight, the bigger is learning to check your surroundings or getting to a safe place after a shooting.

(Bear in mind, the safe place doesn't have to be 4 counties away, like that guy in Jacksonville last week.)
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Old December 2, 2012, 01:19 PM   #39
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For the folks that say they need to see their holster, I guess you never carry with a SOB holster?
I think you are missing the point. It is not so much to "see" the holster as it is to be very deliberate re holstering. I am fairly new to Glock's but have a career of being a gun toter. I do not often carry strong side hip OWB concealed and never SOB due to the possibility of a back injury.
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Old December 2, 2012, 02:08 PM   #40
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I am one of the older shooters here and I can guarantee if I had to shoot then I will reload and reholster and I will look at the gun during both operations. It isn't can't reholster without looking because I usually do but target shooting isn't stressful and a shooting or armed confrontation is.

I will slow down and take the extra step to accommodate nerves and shaking hands. This isn't a TV show or movie where you have to be cool in front of the camera and that extra second to look at your holster is worth it. I wear suspenders too and I don't give two hoots and a holler what you skinny young guys wear or don't wear, you are looking good for your mates and I am just trying to get older. If you have to maintain a 360 degree high security status then you better not be putting your gun away.

All you little holster without looking or it isn't cool types can just come to the little hut in the woods and show me where I am wrong. I will learn from everybody and if you can explain how I am not a gunner because I look then fine but I have been holstering guns since the early 50's and have yet to shoot myself or drop a gun on the ground or miss the holster and have to try it again.
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Old December 2, 2012, 07:08 PM   #41
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I never use a small of the back holster.

It's hard to hit a holster without looking when your hands are shaking.

It's hard to hit a holster that's jammed with crap without looking.

After thinking it over for a couple days, I'm starting to wish I had been taught sul rather than low ready-- I see a couple significant advantages to it, and I've been trying to think of a disadvantage other than existing habits, and I haven't thought of one yet.
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Old December 2, 2012, 07:56 PM   #42
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I'm used to a cross between 'sul' and low ready in crazy situations.
I like the feel of sul..Now, what does s.u.l. stand for?
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Old December 2, 2012, 08:01 PM   #43
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BTW, I've carried many holster types. Some I can reholster in without looking, some I don't try without removing the holster, like my Uncle Mikes. I'm confortable with all I use.
The Uncle Mike's is done by pulling the holster without looking and if the area is clear, I reholster without looking and put holstered firearm by in place without looking. Hand stays with the weapon at all times until PD clears the scene. No disadvantage there.
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Old December 3, 2012, 12:35 AM   #44
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Quote:
I think you are missing the point. It is not so much to "see" the holster as it is to be very deliberate re holstering.
I was just quoting the folks that have said they need to "see" the gun going into the holster. I play gun games and always deliberately holster, upon command to do so, don't remember the last time I looked.
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Old December 3, 2012, 12:57 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinner666
..what does s.u.l. stand for?
"Sul" is Portuguese for "south."
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Old December 3, 2012, 05:12 AM   #46
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1. Fast up / slow down
2. There is NO tactical reason to put the gun back quickly
3. If you just got into a gunfight ALL fine motor skills are gone
4. You dont reholster if your unsure of the situation - period
5. A glance down while finding the holster is not going to give anyone a huge edge on either side
6. This gotta keep the eyes scanning while reholstering is a product of someone who has never been in a firefight - its a BS talking point on a lot of instructors course notes
7. the situation that where you enconter a deadly threat then WAMMO a second deadly threat jumps out just while you are reholstering has probably never occured.
9. Why wouldnt you want to remove yourself from exposure if your not sure of the scene??? if you can LEAVE and be available to the reponders.
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Old December 3, 2012, 11:36 AM   #47
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Quote:
1. Fast up / slow down
2. There is NO tactical reason to put the gun back quickly
3. If you just got into a gunfight ALL fine motor skills are gone
4. You dont reholster if your unsure of the situation - period
5. A glance down while finding the holster is not going to give anyone a huge edge on either side
6. This gotta keep the eyes scanning while reholstering is a product of someone who has never been in a firefight - its a BS talking point on a lot of instructors course notes
7. the situation that where you enconter a deadly threat then WAMMO a second deadly threat jumps out just while you are reholstering has probably never occured.
9. Why wouldnt you want to remove yourself from exposure if your not sure of the scene??? if you can LEAVE and be available to the reponders.
Aha, we have a winner, only 5 posts on the forum and he comes up with the best post in the thread. Of course I have to say that because I agree with him, your mileage may differ.
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Old December 3, 2012, 12:11 PM   #48
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If you carry iwb you kind of need to look while reholstering. Your shirt could get pushed into the holster with the gun and that could be bad. If you didnt identify a secondary threat before reholstering, you werent going to see it anyway. I spend maybe one second glancing at my holster while reholstering.
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Old December 3, 2012, 12:47 PM   #49
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sfmedic,,,,Thanks! For Walking Point. Safe Journey!

Since this discussion also has included some great posts on clearing an area and a 360 degree scan or clearing for danger,,,discussion about low ready and Sul,,,what is everyones thoughts on doing the 360 scan from a modified high ready your elbows tucked into your chest, the handgun pointed almost straight up or straight up about six to eight inches in front of your face and the muzzle just below eye level not blocking your field of view, does not sweep any innocents, and with a quick snap of the wrist downward the gun comes on target.

Thoughts?
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Old December 3, 2012, 12:56 PM   #50
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PH/CIB
...what is everyones thoughts on doing the 360 scan from a modified high ready your elbows tucked into your chest, the handgun pointed almost straight up or straight up about six to eight inches in front of your face and the muzzle just below eye level not blocking your field of view,...
Why?
  1. I don't like the idea of the muzzle of my gun that close to my face.

  2. Held as described the gun is still blocking parts of my field of view that I'd rather not have blocked.

  3. What advantage is there over low-ready or Sul (both of which I'm well practiced in).
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