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Old November 28, 2012, 07:42 PM   #1
phorton
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280 rem loads using imr3031

I have a 280 I inherited from my dad it was made By gilbreath in Stephenville Texas. Whoever had it made had the chamber length set up for factory loads...I have been trying to work up a load using 140 grain Ttsx Barnes bullets and 4831 powder but I have to seat them so deep that I can't get more than 52 grains of powder in them. It is just starting to tighten the groups up. I found some loads using 3031 but not for Barnes bullets only spritzer type..is it safe to use these loads with the longer bullets?
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Old November 28, 2012, 07:48 PM   #2
Brian Pfleuger
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It's not typically safe to use data for conventional lead-core, copper-jacket bullet with the Barnes bullet, or any other monolithic bullet. The Barnes bullets are longer AND have a higher starting pressure.
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Old November 28, 2012, 07:58 PM   #3
phorton
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That's is what I thought. Thanks. Any suggestions
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Old November 28, 2012, 08:36 PM   #4
schwarzwildabknaller
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Re: 280 rem loads using imr3031

Your post begs two questions, phorton:
- Which source are you using for load data for the bullet you cite?
- For which rifle are you loading?

I own two Remington rifles in 280 Rem., a 7400 semiauto and a 7600 pump-action, neither of which model is still chambered by Remington for the 280. For both I developed handloads with the 140 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip, staying pretty much with loads a bit above middle loads listed by the Nosler manual. With this load both rifles put that bullet into 2" at 100 yards, and have taken deer and chamois with one shot to the heart. Spent cartridge cases showed no signs of excessive pressure.

As for loads for the Barnes 140 gr. TSX BT cited in the Barnes no. 4 loading manual (page 191), IMR-3031 is not even among the powders used! For safety's sake, use only the Barnes manual for developing loads for Barnes bullets. Brian Pflueger is absolutely right in his post.
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Old November 28, 2012, 08:54 PM   #5
phorton
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The gun is built on a Mauser action with a shilen 24" barrel....I have the Barnes manual #4 ....thanks for the info
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Old November 28, 2012, 08:58 PM   #6
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You might have a gunsmith lengthen the throat, or use another manufacture's bullet. Don't try to extrapolet, use data you find in the Barnes manual and the same components. William

Last edited by William T. Watts; November 28, 2012 at 09:05 PM.
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Old November 28, 2012, 09:24 PM   #7
Brian Pfleuger
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If you give me the specifics, I can use QuickLoad to give you some idea where to start and end, if you believe that you are sufficiently experienced to recognize pressure issues.

I would need OAL and distance from the rifling.
Actual bullet length.
Actual case length
Measured fired, unsized case capacity in grains H20
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Old November 28, 2012, 09:30 PM   #8
phorton
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Thanks Brian... I will have to get all that info...William.. That's prolly what I will do I have talked to a gunsmith about doing it just thought someone on here might have worked up something using a faster powder..thanks for y'all's help
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Old November 28, 2012, 10:10 PM   #9
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I used QuickLOAD's defaults to find a barrel time for 100% case fill of IMR4831. I then told it to pick out other powders producing the same barrel time and looked at the ones that do it at about the same pressure but with a smaller percent case fill. The three available candidates that did this without losing velocity are Vihtavuori N550 and Ramshot Hunter and Norma URP. Any one of them would let you load a little warmer than you are now without compressing the charge, which should tune you into a sweet spot.
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Last edited by Unclenick; November 29, 2012 at 01:18 PM. Reason: typo fix
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Old November 28, 2012, 10:19 PM   #10
phorton
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Thanks...I'll look into that...that's what I'm looking for
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Old November 29, 2012, 12:38 AM   #11
old roper
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phorton. COAL for the 280 is 3.330" and if your using Barnes data the start load is 52gr/H-4841SC max 55gr/H-4831SC and Barnes has the COAL @ 3.270" with load density at 92% for their 140gr bullet.

If your using IMR-4831 51grs to start max 54.5gr load density 95% in the Barnes manual for 140gr bullets.

I don't have any IMR-4831 or I dump some in a 280 case but I dumped 57gr/H-4831SC and I had over 1/2" before bullet touch powder and 150gr TSX if I seated those I'd hardly be compress @ 3.330".

If you got short throat and these longer bullets take up case capacity best to switch over to a FB bullets they be little shorter than BT. Before you think about having longer throat might want to check magazine length.


My 280AI was factory Rem in 280.
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Old November 29, 2012, 01:05 AM   #12
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phorton

I have a Remington 7400 in 280 Rem, the best accuracy I got with IMR 3031 is 44.5 grains with a 150 grn core lokt (7/8", 4 shots, 100 yards).
I believe the starting load was 43 grns and max was 46 grns. The best load with Nosler BT's was 45 grns (1", 4 shots, 100 yds).
I have never tried Barnes bullets, but I have been interested in the Nosler E-Tips,
Nosler provides info stating; not to load to max pressures due to the construction of the bullet, that E-tips reach max pressures sooner than conventional bullets.
I assume that Barnes are the same way !
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Old November 29, 2012, 02:01 PM   #13
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Tahoe2,

They are alike in that regard. Solids require more pressure to engrave with the rifling, so the start pressure is higher.


Old Roper,

I used QuickLOAD's default case capacity with the TTSX, specifically (the longest of the 8 different 140 grain Barnes bullets shown), I show 100% case fill of IMR 4831 weighing 52.1 grains with the COL at 3.330". That matches Phoron's experience. If I swap in H4831, I get 52 grains being 94% case fill. If I swap in H4831 SC, 52 grains shows as just 90.4% case fill. But despite the higher bulk density of the H versions, it also predicts lower pressure and velocity at 100% fill for them than for the IMR version. That's due mainly to the IMR version having a much larger progressivity factor (steeper initial burn curve) that makes it burn more efficiently in this particular application.


Phoron,

What COL did you end up loading to?
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Old November 29, 2012, 03:58 PM   #14
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The medium slow powders are the ticket for my 280s. RL-19 has been the most consistent and accurate with 139 Hornady and 140 NBT.
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Old November 29, 2012, 04:22 PM   #15
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Unclenick, I do things the old fashion way as I like to actually drop powder in a case measure distance from top of powder to case mouth then I load bullet in case said 3.330" measure bullet length subtract for bullet overall length so that tells how far bullet is seat into the case.

I didn't have any 7mm 140gr TTSx which their length according to Barnes site is 1.362" and your are right they are long. My wife's 280AI she shoots a 150gr TSX which little longer than the 140gr 1.400"

Like I said I had little over 1/2" till top of powder (57gr)from case mouth again using 3.330" I'd seat that TSX 150gr bullet .670" into the case. A Rem new 280 case if you fill to top case mount with H-4831 it take 66.2gr and Win case take 67gr.

My neighbor had some IMR-4831 so we check case capacity and the Win took 64.5gr Rem 63.8gr.

I loaded 54.5gr/IMR-4831 in the Rem case and I could seat 150gr TSX with not problems

I load out of the manual so I know nothing of QL. I used my short funnel if I used the longer one it would of been little better.
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Old November 29, 2012, 08:38 PM   #16
phorton
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In this gun I am having to seat the bullets deep enough to get 3.221 c o a l , about like some factory loads I measured that gets me a little off the lands. I talked to Ty from Barnes bullets today and he recommended to go ahead and go up with my powder charge and compress the powder, I was a little uneasy to do that but I am gonna give it a try, I will measure the load immediately after seating the bullet and then remeasure after 15 or 20 minutes to make sure the powder is not pushing the bullet out per Ty's recommendation
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Old December 2, 2012, 03:32 AM   #17
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i have made compressed loads for my 8x57 mauser and never had the bullets back out, but I use a LEE "factory crimp die". Hope that helps.
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Old December 2, 2012, 02:44 PM   #18
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Phorton,

Per what Old Roper suggested obliquely, a tall drop tube can also make a difference with stick powders. Below are three photos of the same .30-06 case charged with the same charge of 4064 dispensed with no drop tube, then emptied and redispensed with a 4 inch drop tube, then with a 3 foot drop tube. You can see the effect. Spherical powders show very little difference from doing this (one reason they meter consistently), but the sticks respond well. Letting powder enter the case at a slight angle so it tends to swirl is another method.

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