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Old November 28, 2012, 05:44 PM   #26
MLeake
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aarond raises an interesting point, and one which was used for dramatic purposes in The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo.

Stellan Skarsgaard's character lures Daniel Craig's character into a trap, simply by inviting him into the house. Once he has the reporter disabled, he tells him that he should have listened to his inner voice; that the reporter suspected he was a killer, but was too afraid of seeming rude to refuse the invitation.

On another point entirely, earlier, I recommended getting a dog. I've since received a query about recommended breeds. I don't really want to say, "get this or that" as a general rule of thumb. What I do want to say is something I should have mentioned in that original post: I only recommend dogs for people who like dogs, and who are willing to put some effort into training and working with dogs.

Those breeds that are good at actually being protective also tend to be breeds that require both a firm hand, and a lot of mental stimulation.

People who don't like dogs, or who won't work with them, should not rely on dogs for protection.
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Old November 28, 2012, 06:51 PM   #27
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Nockturnus what say you? crickets chirping.....
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Old November 28, 2012, 07:06 PM   #28
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I do not like saying this, but, and there always is a but is a life, the world is becoming an unsafe place rather quickly. You should only trust a stranger who is not in a position to do something to you ... that means not opening the door in many situations. This is especially so for women and men without fighting skills and/or armed. Most strangers are good people, but the percentage of people who are no so is rising every year it seems.

Play it safe by playing it safe, identify from a position of safety, and be prepared to take appropriate action if needed ... if not, have a great day.

Even old folks need to worry, as I have seen predators who only targeted older women, until one old and wonderful woman who heard a guy breaking in the front door stood there with a .32 in hand, the door finally opened and she opened up, hitting the perv five times!!! Damn the stupid neighbors who called for medical too quickly, and he survived to go to prison!
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Old November 28, 2012, 07:25 PM   #29
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She never should have opened the door in the first place. My wife doesn't open the door unless I am home. If it's real important, they can call me and we will talk on the phone or they can set up an appointment with me for a time I will be home.
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Old November 28, 2012, 07:42 PM   #30
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Police. They're good at it.
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Old November 28, 2012, 08:52 PM   #31
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What would you have done?
Have her close door and call 911, now. Then and only then consider arming herself. Your wife should have never have opened the door to give the phone to the guy either.

It sounds as all you and your wife had was a pushy sales rep, Pain in the ass yes, but NOT a threat to her life..

Quote:
I have never heard of AT&T sending salespeople door-to-door. Never.
Sir, neither have I. After thinking about this some, I can't help but wonder if it was an A.D.T. sales weasel? Most of the in home alarm companies sales staff can get VERY pushy. I had one 10+ years ago who refused to leave when asked by my wife and then myself. When given the chance to leave or be introduced to Mr. Cane, he finally wised up and left.

Last edited by old bear; November 28, 2012 at 10:33 PM.
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Old November 28, 2012, 08:53 PM   #32
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I have never heard of AT&T sending salespeople door-to-door. Never. And both my parents worked for Ma Bell ... my father for over 40 years.

Your house needs some kind of security at the front door. Those chains that allow the door to open 6 inches are a start, but they only work if the person outside doesn't kick the door. Better would be a two-way intercom, so your wife can speak without opening the door, and without even being seen.

IMHO you and your wife need to have a discussion about home safety. If she's home alone (or with kids, then kids arrive), she should NOT open the door to strangers. In today's world of laser printers and digital photos, NO ID is worth the plastic it's printed on. Anyone can make an official-looking ID. "We're not interested," is a perfectly acceptable reply to any question. After all, if you want something AT&T offers, it's not like you can't pick up the phone, log onto the Internet, or visit an AT&T storefront on any main street or in any shopping mall.

With respect, both you and your wife messed up. She should have closed and locked the door immediately. Her FIRST phone call should have been to the police. Anyone who will not leave when told to leave is trespassing ... period. That's a police matter. She should have called you AFTER she called the police, to let you know the police were on the way. At that point, you could have told her to get the gun ... and at that point she should have gotten the gun.
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Old November 28, 2012, 09:11 PM   #33
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Two things I have tried to teach my wife for over twenty years are that phones and doors do not need to be answered. Both have caused unnecessary risk and frustration. She is slowly coming around to my side of life.
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Old November 28, 2012, 09:18 PM   #34
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A note about cable-guy ID's...

I worked for a cable company. We made our badges from a file on my bosses phone at office-max. They were all "fake". there was no system. We picked a number we liked, took a quick camera phone picture, put the picture in the blank square and he printed it up. Office-max asked no questions.

Point is, the badge means nothing. dont trust a badge, anyone can print up an EXACT one at any office store.
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Old November 28, 2012, 10:00 PM   #35
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Well, we all have different opinions, but I would have told her to close the door and call the Police. Then while she is on the phone with the 911 Operator she can retrieve the gun.

This could potentially be dangerous. If he did intend her harm and he knew she was about to call the police this forces him into the decision of making his move immediately and she has no means to defend herself. Granted he already allowed her to make one phonecall but in a similar situation I would suggest arming yourself before calling the police. If she is attacked while on the phone with police the only thing the police will do is hear the attack, being on the phone with them is no protection. If you or a loved one feels threatened retrieving the means to defend yourself is the first priority, notifying the police is second.
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Old November 28, 2012, 10:07 PM   #36
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As far as asking people for ID that is pretty meaningless. I have had several official government IDs including one in my wallet now. I've seen official ID for countless police officers, deputies, etc..... They are usually pretty easy to fake if you wanted to. The only thing useful about them is they may have an ID number you can verify with the employer.
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Old November 29, 2012, 01:18 AM   #37
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Thanks for the advice. As usual you guys have some great information. Sorry I have been AFK all day. Remodeling my bathroom and playing on our new Wii U.

Quote:
Because we (as a society) have been conditioned to not be "rude",,,
Bad guys and commissioned salesmen have learned this,,,
We (I used to sell insurance door to door) use this,,,
It's the major vulnerability of our times.

Don't fault the OP's wife too much here,,,
It's ingrained in the rules of our society and difficult to overcome.

Aarond
This is exactly what happened. She said she has problems with this exact issue. I do as well but have learned to say no. I have tried to get her to be more cautious and to learn how to use our firearms. She refuses to go to the range again (I got her to go once).

When we talked about her getting the gun from the safe she responded with "I don't know how to use it." I was upset at that point. I have shown her several times how to use a gun, I have had her rack the slide and she has shot them the one time I got her to go to the range.

I have asked her to read the info on corneredcat.com and she wont. I don't know what else to do. We have a baby coming in 3 months and I really want them to be safe while I am not home.
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Old November 29, 2012, 01:41 AM   #38
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I have never heard of AT&T sending salespeople door-to-door.
It depends on the precise interpretation of "sending salespeople".

I have had AT&T send salespeople to my door (I confirmed it with AT&T) but they were not actually AT&T employees.

I'm still sore about it. <RANT ALERT>They told me a pack of lies (the first one being that they were AT&T employees) to get me to sign up for UVerse service. Then when the serviceman came to actually do the install, he told us the truth--but before leaving, he did a partial install and left the wiring in a state that caused it to fail awhile later. Then AT&T left us without phone/internet/monitored alarm for 4 days because they were too busy to come out and fix the problem they created.<END RANT>

High-pressure sales persons are taught that people are reticent to be rude and are also taught use people's politeness against them.

Learning to deal effectively with people who won't take no for an answer is good practice for dealing with confrontational criminals who often use similar tactics to close with a victim.
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Old November 29, 2012, 02:17 AM   #39
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For those of us who do enjoy the advantage of dogs, here is an actual encounter:

Person at door: "Would you mind putting up your dog? He makes me nervous?"

Me: "The dog lives here. If he makes you nervous, you should probably leave."

Person at door: "Leaving."

In a more dramatic one, my dad's cousin had a salesman show up at her door, complete with panel van, saying he was a floral deliveryman but was having trouble finding an address in her neighborhood. This was in the late 80's, so before cell phones, and the guy wanted to use her phone to call the customer and get better directions, he said.

My dad's cousin didn't think twice about it, and let the guy in.

She hadn't even thought about her German Shepherd, "Pup," who was a sweetheart of a dog.

Pup took notice of this guy and started growling.

Salesman: "Does your dog bite?"

Cousin, finally getting a clue: "I don't think we want to find out."

Salesman: departs.

When my dad's cousin called her husband to tell him what happened, he had her call the police.

She was surprised when several patrol cars pulled up. Turned out a serial rapist was targeting rural/suburban housewives by day, in the guise of a lost floral deliveryman.

Last dramatic example, my ex-wife had accosted a man who was choking his girlfriend in a parking lot near the bath house at Kailua beach, on Oahu. The girlfriend ran off, and the guy turned on my ex (we were married at the time; I was deployed to Bahrain). Luckily for my ex, who was all of 5'2", 100lbs, a crowd started to take notice, including some jarhead friends of ours, so the guy backed off.

A while later, my ex hops in the SUV she'd ridden in on, and she and our marine friends drive back to where she'd left her 4Runner. She drove back to our place, in a somewhat remote neighborhood in the Nuuanu rain forest - about a twenty minute drive, involving some unlikely turns. She went to the house, let out our Rott/Shepherd, and started to take her down to the back yard when the dog started growling, and moved in front of my ex.

That's when my ex saw the guy from the beach, and a buddy of his, approaching from the back yard.

Not sure what they intended, but doubt it was anything good.

They froze at sight of the snarling dog. The ex ran back into the house, and retrieved her previous year's birthday present from me, a Beretta 92 Brigadier 9mm.

The guys apparently left skid marks turning and running.

So, dogs, if you are a dog person, provide both warning and deterrent value. If BGs are not smart enough to leave, dogs also provide some damage capability.
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Old November 29, 2012, 04:49 AM   #40
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I guess you need to buy her and your future child a revolver for Christmas.
"A DAO revolver is the only intelligent choice when selecting a handgun that may have to be used by someone with no interest in or preference for guns."
No safeties, no magazines, no slide to rack, just point and shoot.
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Old November 29, 2012, 04:56 AM   #41
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She had a gun available, but wouldn't carry it nor retrieve it, if I understood the OP correctly.
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Old November 29, 2012, 05:58 AM   #42
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One who doesn't want to use a weapon shouldn't have one.
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Old November 29, 2012, 10:40 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa
High-pressure sales persons are taught that people are reticent to be rude and are also taught use people's politeness against them.

Learning to deal effectively with people who won't take no for an answer is good practice for dealing with confrontational criminals who often use similar tactics to close with a victim.
I've dealth with contracted sales and service personnel, and hardly ever with someone with serious criminal intent, but what they have in common is a desire to take something that isn't theirs.

What a salesman wants that isn't his is the courtesy we extend in social settings. His context isn't social. In dealing with this problem, it can be difficult to teach some people (my wife especially included) that social courtesy isn't appropriate for cold call salesmen.

I don't take any pleasure in being rude to a salesman or anyone else. However once they have been directed to cease communication, they should only be issued instructions, not engaged in further conversation.
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Old November 29, 2012, 11:21 AM   #44
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She had a gun available, but wouldn't carry it nor retrieve it, if I understood the OP correctly.
Yes, that is correct. And for the record, we have 3 dogs. 2 of them are dachshunds and 1 is a terrier mix. Dachshunds, while small, are a force to be reckoned with. But I personally don't feel any dog should be used for protection. My dogs are like my children and I would fight to keep them safe.

My wife is a decent judge of character but a little naive when it comes to dealing with people at the door. I plan on having more discussions about this in the future and creating a plan in case something happens again.

I did tell her that next time I ask her to get the gun, she needs to get it.
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Old November 29, 2012, 11:50 AM   #45
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If a stranger is rude enough to interrupt me at home, in public, or even on the phone, I feel justified in returning the rudeness with a "buzz off" attitude. Don't forget that they WANT something from you, it is their agenda, not yours, and nothing requires you to help them achieve their goal.

When I was told "don't talk to strangers" some 60 years ago, it really stuck, and to this day I just don't.
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Old November 29, 2012, 01:22 PM   #46
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Another reason, if you want guns - to carry one. Door gets kicked in and you have to get to the gun. Might not make it. Most folks can carry a little one if need be.

Alas, this is why I always have my gun on me until I go to bed at night. When I shower, it's on the toilet seat. When I'm on the toilet...you can use your imagination. It's nothing sick, relax.

My gun is always on me. Nothing feels more useless than needing your gun and not being able to access it. I know that feeling. -___-

You did fine OP. Talk to the wifey a lot more on what to do. Do an outline of this thread.

Link her to "cornered cat" written by PAX a member and admin on this forum. It's from a woman's perspective.
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Old November 29, 2012, 01:36 PM   #47
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Alas, this is why I always have my gun on me until I go to bed at night. When I shower, it's on the toilet seat.
What a miserable way to have to live. I hope someone is paying you big bucks to keep you where ever you are! How long before you can leave?
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Old November 29, 2012, 01:39 PM   #48
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What a miserable way to have to live. I hope someone is paying you big bucks to keep you where ever you are! How long before you can leave?

I love every second of it. now go worry about yourself. K?
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Old November 29, 2012, 01:57 PM   #49
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Like Constantine, I carry every day, from the time I get dressed until the time I go to bed at night. It's a habit, in the same way that putting on your shirt is a habit. Sure, you could walk around without it all the time, but it's just as easy to put it on and forget about it. Carrying the gun is my default setting, that's all.

Want to know what I think would be a miserable way to live? For me -- and of course this will be different for others because people are all different -- it would be emotionally unhealthy to carry the gun "sometimes." That would mean that when I got dressed in the morning, instead of just putting the gun on my belt before I put my shoes on, I would instead be thinking something like, How dangerous will my life be today? Will I be going anywhere that I might have to shoot someone? What's the crime rate like in that neighborhood? Was there a recent murder, a rape, a violent assault? Will I have to kill someone today?

Instead of dwelling on nasty stuff like that, I just get dressed.

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Old November 29, 2012, 02:06 PM   #50
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Like Constantine, I carry every day, from the time I get dressed until the time I go to bed at night. It's a habit, in the same way that putting on your shirt is a habit. Sure, you could walk around without it all the time, but it's just as easy to put it on and forget about it. Carrying the gun is my default setting, that's all.

Want to know what I think would be a miserable way to live? For me -- and of course this will be different for others because people are all different -- it would be emotionally unhealthy to carry the gun "sometimes." That would mean that when I got dressed in the morning, instead of just putting the gun on my belt before I put my shoes on, I would instead be thinking something like, How dangerous will my life be today? Will I be going anywhere that I might have to shoot someone? What's the crime rate like in that neighborhood? Was there a recent murder, a rape, a violent assault? Will I have to kill someone today?

Instead of dwelling on nasty stuff like that, I just get dressed.

pax

I've never seen such a perfect response to justify why I am the way that I am as well. Excellent.

See? I'm not alone. I second every word of that.
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Sáncte Míchael Archángele, defénde nos in proélio, cóntra nequítiam et insídias diáboli ésto præsídium. Ímperet ílli Déus, súpplices deprecámur: tuque, prínceps milítiæ cæléstis, Sátanam aliósque spíritus malígnos, qui ad perditiónem animárum pervagántur in múndo, divína virtúte, in inférnum detrúde. Ámen
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