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Old November 29, 2012, 06:46 PM   #26
arch308
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I put a 3.5 lb disconnect and Wolff spring on all 4 of my Glocks. I can't see that they are less safe and I shoot better with them. I'm not worried about legal issues.
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Old November 29, 2012, 07:37 PM   #27
johnbt
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"Does anyone have any first hand knowledge of a court case involving a justified self defense shooting that was changed due to the gun being modified?"

No.

The question has been asked over and over since I got on line back in the last century and the answer appears to be no.
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Old November 29, 2012, 08:15 PM   #28
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Depends what you mean by this. I'd recommend reading some of Massad Ayoobs books. He shows some cases where a cocked revolver caused an AD that could have been deemed manslaughter, whereas if it was an intentional shot it would have been justified.
A cocked revolver would not go off if the shooter did not have his finger inside the trigger guard when he was not ready to shoot. It was not an AD it was a NEGLIGENT discharge.

Lightening the trigger to increase accuracy to hit the intended target is fine. Because the intended victim should be able to show that he is proficient, through training, with the firearm at the trigger weight he/she selected.
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Old November 29, 2012, 10:43 PM   #29
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As nice as the trigger pull is on my Glock, It is NOWHERE near the trigger pull on my Kimber 1911.
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Old November 29, 2012, 11:45 PM   #30
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I have ghost triggers on my glocks. A lighter trigger does not affect the safety of the weapon. The trigger won't pull itself
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Old November 30, 2012, 12:07 PM   #31
Gaerek
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Does anyone have any first hand knowledge of a court case involving a justified self defense shooting that was changed due to the gun being modified?
Ok, so I couldn't find anything with my own research (as I'm sure others have done as well). So I decided to go to the horses mouth. I emailed Massad Ayoob and asked him if he knew of any cases where some modification to a firearm led to a conviction in an otherwise justified self defense shooting. He actually got back to me within a half an hour, which really surprised me, but shows that he really is interested in helping people. Anyway, here's his email to me:

Quote:
A Google search for appellate lawyer Lisa Steele's article in The Champion, publication of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers on the subject of defending deadly force cases will turn up useful points for you. Light triggers open the door to allegations of indefensible negligent discharges when in fact the shooting was justifiable and intentional; Florida v. Luis Alvarez is a good example, and there's a huge chapter on it in Roy Black's book "Black's Law." (Roy was the lead defense counsel in that case.) A review of Arizona v. Harold Fish will give a good example of how something irrelevant (hollow point ammo in a 10mm pistol) can be twisted against a defendant with convicton resulting, if it is not effectively defended in court.

best,
Mas
So, let me break this up, as I did look up a lot of this stuff. First of all, Lisa Steele's article. I will say right now, the article doesn't give a case where mods were used against is, but it does recommend against mods. Part 5 is where you'll find it.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...nse-case-pt-1/

tl;dr

Quote:
‘Killer’ Bullets and Hair-Triggers

The attorney should research the weapon and ammunition the client used. Ask the client why he purchased and carried that specific weapon. Research its self-defense uses.

The client will be in the strongest position if he or she used a firearm and ammunition similar to that issued to local police departments. Many police departments issue semi-automatic pistols chambered for 9mm or larger caliber with jacketed hollow-point (JHP) ammunition. If the client has used hollow-point ammunition, the attorney should understand and be able to quickly explain to a judge or jury why JHP ammunition is widely recommended for self-defense use. The attorney should have a gunsmith or other expert check the amount of pressure required to pull the trigger on a recovered firearm for the first shot and any subsequent shots, and check its safety devices to make sure they were functioning.
Keep in mind, this article is mainly a primer for attorneys who may have to defend a self defense shooting. Having said that, it's a great read for anyone who wants to know the different legal angles that might be taken by either side of a case you may be a part of.

The Florida vs. Luis Alvarez case is next. There's a discussion on an archive of these forums from about 10 years ago that mentions it and has a decent overview of it. I haven't read Black's Law, but I think I might now.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/arch...?t-114917.html

Lastly, the Harold Fish case. This is one I've actually looked into. Massad is correct when he says something irrelevant was turned into a conviction. Why? Because the prosecution was successful in arguing to the jury that 10mm JHP ammunition was excessive and that only someone who was a bloodthirsty killer would use that (that is how Mr. Fish was portrayed by the prosecution, even though the evidence didn't support it.) Mr. Fish spent 3 years in prison for 2nd Degree Murder until he won an appeal that allowed him to be free. He actually passed away last month, 3 years since he was released.

Ammo shouldn't be an issue (except reloads, of course) in a defense case. However, in this case it was. A light trigger, or removed magazine safety, or laser engraved "Smile before Flash" shouldn't be an issue either. But you are inviting trouble if you do these things to your carry weapon.

In Florida vs Alvarez, he was aquitted. But according to the attorney, it could have gone either way.

In the Harold Fish case (I'd recommend reading it, it's very interesting), something that shouldn't have been a factor, was a factor, and he was convicted, it cost him hundreds of thousands of dollars, and he lost 3 years of his life to prison. He was eventually found not guilty, and released, but is it worth it to you to go through what he did?

Bottom line, modify your gun at your own risk. Chances are, you won't be in a self defense shooting, so it won't matter. But, what if you are? Do you want yet another legal hurdle to have to jump in order to get aquitted? Personally, I'd want the easiest time possible. It's proven time and time again, you don't need a super clean 2# trigger to get good groups. Hell, I remember seeing something somewhere (maybe in one of his books) where Mas Ayoob shot a perfect IDPA classifier (no points down) with a heavy double action revolver. So that super light, crisp trigger just isn't needed. I for one don't want to give the other side of my potential criminal/civil trial ANY ammunition. I'll just practice and make up for not have that super trigger.
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Old November 30, 2012, 12:33 PM   #32
iblong
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Well out of the dozen or so hand guns I own including revolvers only one has not had some type of action work and thats my Kimber UCII.
So I guess I'll have to take my chances,as Im not willing to undo whats been done.
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Old November 30, 2012, 01:02 PM   #33
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10-12 lbs would be safe.

Thats what a DA revolver was and the same for the DA/SA semi autos. glock changed it based on nothing other than a gun for military purposes that they then marketed to the civilian market. That put the gun out of the hands of people who actually are trained to use them into hands of people that can have no training whatsoever (and the military always carries them in a holster).

Otherwise you should have a manual safety like the MP offers.
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Old November 30, 2012, 04:48 PM   #34
Dashunde
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Honestly guys.. is there really any real reason to change the trigger on a dedicated ccw Glock?
Is is really going to improve your chances of survival... no, probably not.
Is a modified trigger going to become a topic of conversation by the DA... you bet.
Will it matter in the end? No... not if the court isnt the kangaroo variety and your shot was justified in the first place and you have a decent lawyer who can beat back such nonsense.
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Old November 30, 2012, 06:07 PM   #35
hblac
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I use a polished 3.5 lb connector on my G-26. I like the trigger pull better than stock and believe I'm more accurate with it as well.
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Old November 30, 2012, 06:21 PM   #36
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"Honestly guys.. is there really any real reason to change the trigger on a dedicated ccw Glock?"

NO, absolutely not. To do so is nothing but utter foolishness and fool-hardyiness.

If you want to treat your Glock like a hobby/plaything, tinker to your heart's content.

If you want to use it as a weapon, to defend your life, stop frackin' around with it and practice, practice, practice with it.
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Old November 30, 2012, 06:44 PM   #37
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The argument should be that a person who practices a lot and is helped by the lighter trigger pull does so in the hope that if a dangerous situation developes, the improved accuracy 'may' give him him a chance at a non-lethal shot.
Not that it will go down that way, but who knows, maybe he'll get a chance to shoot the weapon out of the BG's hand. Just saying.
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Old November 30, 2012, 07:01 PM   #38
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Oh, to answer the original question, mine are about 3.5#. Why? Because all my pistols have been that or lighter since I was a child. I have a S&W 63 that has about a 5# DA and maybe 2# single. All my revolvers are about the same except for a new Taurus 941. I'm still trying to make that shootable too.
It makes for zero transitioning between play and carry pistols since all are fairly consistent.
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Old December 1, 2012, 08:38 AM   #39
Dashunde
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If your far enough away that the accuracy advantage of a lighter trigger makes a difference then the shot may not be warranted or legitimate.
There are obvious exceptions of course, but you get the point... pinpoint accuracy and SD shooting dont really go together, so why bother with the trigger and all the other potential pit-falls?
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Old December 1, 2012, 09:14 AM   #40
barstoolguru
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your not going to get to 3.5 kbs unless you do all the springs and the connector at the same time. in my option adding a lighter firing pin spring can cause misfires

just for the record I added a connector and spring and it made a little difference

if it’s a legal shooting it will never see court

Last edited by barstoolguru; December 1, 2012 at 01:45 PM.
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Old December 1, 2012, 09:34 AM   #41
Nathan
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Lot's of interesting conjecture. It seems Mr. Ayoob's advice is to come up with a story that can be told and live it.

My story might be that I am a normal guy raised in a rural state, always shot guns, bought all my guns as range guns, load most of my ammo and generally shoot monthly for fun. I got my CCW to make it possible to carry a gun if I need to.

I carry one of the few range guns I shoot regularly because I know I'm safe with it. I have proven my ability to hit what I shoot at in my CCW class and on game. I carry reloads or store bought ammo. Because I load most of my ammo, but buy a small amount to suppliment based on cost and timing. I generally study gun, ammo and reloading decisions for months or years.

For me to suddenly buy a gun and ammo my PD uses for ccw would be a questionable departure from my normal.
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Old December 1, 2012, 12:21 PM   #42
johnbt
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"In Florida vs Alvarez, he was aquitted. But according to the attorney, it could have gone either way."

But it didn't.

There just isn't much in the way of a documented conviction, is there?
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Old December 1, 2012, 04:58 PM   #43
RC20
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Quote:
The argument should be that a person who practices a lot and is helped by the lighter trigger pull does so in the hope that if a dangerous situation developes, the improved accuracy 'may' give him him a chance at a non-lethal shot.
Not that it will go down that way, but who knows, maybe he'll get a chance to shoot the weapon out of the BG's hand. Just saying.
Mod may rightly fully censor me for going off OP topic but.........

You do not trick shoot ever. Center of mass, period.

And in further discussion, the difference between a DA revolver with a light pull in SA and a striker is zero. The DA has the safe 10-12 lb pull and you can SELECT a lower pull by cocking it. A striker has not such select feature.

A striker is already nebulous for safe pull and to lighten it up further takes an iffy situation and makes it worse (and I except the MPs with the safety, that is like having a 1911).

Only glock PR has made it acceptable.
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Old December 1, 2012, 05:06 PM   #44
Nanuk
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As with everything else there are lots of opinions. I customize my guns for ME, the grip, the trigger, the sights. In that way I shoot them best. I am not worried about someone saying I accidentally shot someone, unless it was not me that shot them.
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Old December 1, 2012, 05:48 PM   #45
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barstoolguru

if it’s a legal shooting it will never see court

This couldn't be farther from the truth. The defender does not get to decide that the shoot was righteous. There have been MANY "good shoots" that went to court and many bad shoots that didn't.

And that just criminal court. Even if you don't get charged criminally, you may well be open to civil suits.

Self defense is rarely black and white.
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Old December 1, 2012, 05:59 PM   #46
barstoolguru
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like I said if its a legal shooting it will never see court. if it is a Grand jury OR judge no bill it never sees court
Quote:
Grand Jury no-bills Winfield sergeant in February shooting
http://www.dailytribune.net/news/art...a4bcf887a.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Hor...ng_controversy

this is fla;
Quote:
In 50 of the cases, the person who used force was never charged with a crime. Another nine defendants were granted immunity by a judge and nine cases were dismissed.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/2...und-cases.html

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/2...#storylink=cpy

Quote:
Even if you don't get charged criminally, you may well be open to civil suits.
this is Texas law but a lot of states have similar laws:

CPRC § 83.001. CIVIL IMMUNITY. A defendant who uses force or deadly force that is justified under Chapter 9, Penal Code, is immune from civil liability for personal injury or death that results from the defendant's use of force or deadly force, as applicable.
Quote:
The defender does not get to decide that the shoot was righteous.
I never said this but show us some cases where the case was tried on modifications of a firearm, where they made the person look bad because the added something to a gun

Last edited by barstoolguru; December 1, 2012 at 06:21 PM.
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Old December 2, 2012, 06:11 PM   #47
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It is pretty simple. If you modify your firearm then you better be able to articulate why. All my firearms have "trigger jobs" and I do not worry a single bit about it. I can articulate that I have done so to minimize the risk of an uninvolved party being struck with a projectile. I can also articulate the reason I use a JHP vs. a FMJ is to minimize the risk of overpenetration that could also cause an uninvolved party to be struck with a projectile.

We can all pretend that during a high stress situation we will hit out target every time with a heavy trigger because we go to the range and shoot on a regular basis, but the simple fact is that will not be the case. That has been proven time and time again. I have a family member who is an excellent shooter and has been a shooter for 30+ years. He was involved in a shooting at very close range with a revolver. Out of 3 shots fired, he hit his target 1 time. If it is a righteous shoot then it will not matter, if it is not a righteous shoot then it still does not matter.

We are allowed to have trigger jobs on our firearms if they are our personal weapons as long as the armorer inspects the work and determines it is safe.
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Old December 2, 2012, 10:43 PM   #48
Schnitzjr
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I will be taking delivery of a filthy gen 2 G19 by around Tuesday. I fully anticipate the pistol having a NY trigger. I plan on shooting a hundred rounds through it before installing the Ghost trigger connector and stock Glock trigger spring that I already ordered.
I believe either set up is safe but I already own the finest trigger ever put on a striker fired pistol in the history of the world: Walther PPQ.
I didn't realize I had to spend $30 to get a Glock trigger on par with its competition.
As a relatively new shooter, I find the believe that a carry gun needs a stout double action trigger to be "safe" pretty silly.
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Old December 3, 2012, 12:01 PM   #49
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Quote:
if it’s a legal shooting it will never see court
Tell that to George Zimmerman. (Initial investigator said it was a legal shoot, though we have yet to see how it will turn out, the facts seem to point to it being legal, and it will most likely go to trial)

Tell that to Harold Fish. (Initial investigator said it was a legal shoot, turns out it was, after 2 trials and 3 years in prison for Mr. Fish)

Your ignorance in this matter stinks. All it takes is an anti-gun DA who wants to make an name for himself. He will use anything he can to get you convicted.

Quote:
And you know this factoid because....... I know you read it on the internet.
You should have read my next post before you made this ignorant comment. Actually, I emailed one of the most well known expert witnesses in self defense history and got information from him. Unlike most people (I'm guessing you learned it's ok to modify your carry piece from somewhere on the Internet), I take what I read on the Internet with a grain of salt. I'll get my information from individuals who actually have credentials to talk about what they're talking about. That means asking them personally, reading their books (it's kinda like a blog, but written on paper and usually longer), and *gasp* going to the library!

In other words, I'd rather get my information from someone who's actually sat in and read the facts of HUNDREDS of self-defense cases (many of which he can't talk about for various reasons) than some mall ninja who thinks it's ok to tinker with his carry piece because afterall, its a clean shoot that matters!

Quote:
I am not worried about someone saying I accidentally shot someone, unless it was not me that shot them.
You understand that this is all they need for a manslaughter conviction, right? That's prison time and money paid to the family of the person you shot, regardless of ANY OTHER FACTS. Accidental shooting = Manslaughter.

Quote:
We are allowed to have trigger jobs on our firearms if they are our personal weapons as long as the armorer inspects the work and determines it is safe.
This isn't about whether polishing the trigger is a good idea on a carry piece. It's about whether it's safe and/or smart to lighten a trigger below the factory recommended specs (you'd better be able to articulate why you did it, and it won't be easy). As you mentioned, even a good shooter will have difficulty hitting what they aimed at in a stressful situation. A light trigger won't help you hit anything in this situation. It might cause an Unintentional Discharge (might not also). You're going to be just as inaccurate with your race gun as you are with a NY-2 Glock.

Last edited by Gaerek; December 3, 2012 at 12:08 PM.
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Old December 3, 2012, 02:24 PM   #50
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Quote:
Tell that to George Zimmerman. (Initial investigator said it was a legal shoot, though we have yet to see how it will turn out, the facts seem to point to it being legal, and it will most likely go to trial)

Tell that to Harold Fish. (Initial investigator said it was a legal shoot, turns out it was, after 2 trials and 3 years in prison for Mr. Fish)

Your ignorance in this matter stinks. All it takes is an anti-gun DA who wants to make an name for himself. He will use anything he can to get you convicted.

+1 w/ Gaerek


I don't see why some people aren't grasping the facts.

IF you modify the function or even LOOK of your gun it will look terrible in court. Believe me.

The punisher symbols, the light trigger, anything that can be used against you in the court of law will be used against you.

Is it worth the extra headache? If people are telling you DON'T DO IT why would you do? Ok..great..in the long run it's "fine" after $XXX,XXX is it worth it to prove a point?

Keep your carry guns factory! We're brothers here. With the same common interest. Looking out for each other.

If there's a chance and risk don't take it.
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