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Old April 18, 2014, 08:45 PM   #1
SocialAnarchist
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Open carry

I open carried today for the first time on a trip to the grocery store. I wore my XDs in the factory supplied plastic holster on my right side just forward of my back pocket. I just went about my business as normal and while I think a couple of people saw my gun no one said anything about it.

I guess I expected some one to say something, but maybe it isn't as big a deal as I thought.
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Old April 18, 2014, 08:53 PM   #2
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When they do say something it will most likely be in a panic phone call to the police so be ready to deal with them. Happened to me a bunch of years ago in Arizona, police showed up and told the snowbirds that had called the facts of Az. gun laws. Kinda wonder how it would go down now.
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Old April 18, 2014, 09:01 PM   #3
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It won't be a big deal until suddenly it is. I hope however that your experiences continue to be positive.

I've open carried a few times in less populated areas without issue but otherwise I roll concealed.
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Old April 18, 2014, 09:55 PM   #4
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I wore my XDs in the factory supplied plastic holster on my right side just forward of my back pocket.
That's not a very good holster in general, and it's terrible for open carry. It's floppy and has almost no retention.
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Old April 18, 2014, 10:50 PM   #5
SocialAnarchist
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My state has open carry so the mere fact that I am carrying is not against the law. Of course I can't open carry into places that have signs prohibitting firearms on the premise.

If the police are called and they arrive I will cooperate and handle it calmly.

I am sure there are better holsters, I am hoping within a couple weeks to get my concealed carry so a completely different holster will come into use.
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Old April 18, 2014, 11:34 PM   #6
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I am sure there are better holsters, I am hoping within a couple weeks to get my concealed carry so a completely different holster will come into use
But by carrying in that holster in the meantime, you're exposing yourself to risk.
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Old April 19, 2014, 07:08 AM   #7
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My state has open carry so the mere fact that I am carrying is not against the law. Of course I can't open carry into places that have signs prohibitting firearms on the premise
Open carry is legal in Kentucky as well but there are some cities where you will likely be hassled regardless. In these cases, you can open carry but will be asked to leave because of it. If you refuse, they will charge you will trespassing. Either way, if you are ever involved with the police, handle it correctly.

Tom has a great point about the holster. If I were going to open carry, a good leather holster with some type of retention would be my priority. Galco, Bianchi, High Noon or Don Hume are all good places to start. They will also work as concealed carry holsters when you start going that route.
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Old April 21, 2014, 07:17 PM   #8
chris in va
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My state has open carry so the mere fact that I am carrying is not against the law. Of course I can't open carry into places that have signs prohibitting firearms on the premise.
Well, not sure about WI but many so-called 'open carry' states simply don't have a law disallowing the practice, allowing it by proxy. Just keep that in mind. You may still get a 'MWAG' call and accompanying Terry search and temporary detainment in front of a few dozen onlookers. It happened a couple years ago here in Louisville and almost happened to me in VA.

CA specifically banned the practice after OC groups got carried away with their outings.

Now I do seem to remember a WI OC guy a few years ago getting a monetary settlement for getting arrested, so hopefully various over zealous LEO's got the memo.
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Old April 22, 2014, 02:34 AM   #9
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iT still gives the BG the advantage since you've given up th element of suprise !!
NY you MUIST cary concealed and I agree with that !
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Old April 22, 2014, 01:45 PM   #10
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It may take away the element of surprise, or it may convince someone not to do something because a law abiding citizen is obviously armed.

I will go concealed as soon as I get my permit.
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Old April 22, 2014, 02:48 PM   #11
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With as many thing gone so wrong will leos any more my worry leans more toward a stressed out or or over zealous officer showing up with pistol draw ready to shot first. Its legal to open carry in nc too and I know some do. But as rural as it is where I live and with the 3rd highest percentage off legal CC'rs in the state I have never seen anyone owb openly.
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Old April 22, 2014, 05:49 PM   #12
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It may take away the element of surprise, or it may convince someone not to do something because a law abiding citizen is obviously armed.
Which of those factors is more likely has been the subject of much debate, both here and elsewhere.

There is a real element of risk in the possibility of a gun grab. Carrying in a holster with no retention increases that risk.
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Old April 22, 2014, 06:02 PM   #13
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I'd rather not open carry, for reasons mentioned.... But also, you are basically displaying a$1000 dollar bill.

I believe my right to carry was granted by the constitution, but that's not the reality we live in.... Open carry will get you a free background check soon enough.
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Old April 22, 2014, 06:36 PM   #14
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Right across the border from you in MN. Let us know how the open carry works out.

Just out of curiosity, roughly what age are you and what's your appearance like? i.e. stock broker, 3 piece suit, biker, leather vest, jeans and golf shirt, etc. and if you don't want to comment that is fine because it really is NONE of my business.
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Old April 22, 2014, 07:49 PM   #15
tomrkba
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Always use a retention holster. The Safariland ALS is a great holster that costs around $40 (if they make it for the XDs).
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Old April 25, 2014, 03:01 PM   #16
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Though carry in a less-than-perfect holster could increase the risk of a "gun grab", not carrying due to the lack of a better holster also carries a risk. You have the risk of losing control of your firearm versus the risk of not having your firearm when you may need it; consequences could range from financial loss to the loss of your life.

Good luck in your choices. Personally, I would rather ride a bicycle than walk when my car isn't running.
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Old April 25, 2014, 03:26 PM   #17
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Something tells me that an idiot thug intent on attempting to FORCIBLY TAKE A LOADED GUN FROM YOU doesn't care if there is a retention holster involved or not. That idiot might not even know what the difference is. Either the open-carrier is a weak target and falling-down drunk, or the guy attempting to disarm him has an IQ below 75 and is going to try it no matter what. Don't we all just love to speculate about this stuff?
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Old April 25, 2014, 08:46 PM   #18
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Don't we all just love to speculate about this stuff?
Some seem to. However, we've seen gun grabs from civilians, sometimes with alarming results.

If the purpose of carrying a gun is to reduce risk, it doesn't make much sense to introduce an element of risk back into the equation.
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Old April 25, 2014, 09:51 PM   #19
SocialAnarchist
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Quote:
DaleA

Right across the border from you in MN. Let us know how the open carry works out.

Just out of curiosity, roughly what age are you and what's your appearance like? i.e. stock broker, 3 piece suit, biker, leather vest, jeans and golf shirt, etc. and if you don't want to comment that is fine because it really is NONE of my business.
I am 55, though I am told I look like I am in my late 30's. That is open for debate!! I am a jeans and T-shirt, hoodie sweat shirt type of guy. I have shorter hair and am clean shaven. I suppose it doesn't hurt that I am fairly well known because I am a long tie resident of this area. I graduated high school here and have been very involved in the community.

My son open carried for months and was never hassled by anyone. He has since gotten his ccw and now carries concealed.
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Old April 26, 2014, 01:06 AM   #20
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I open carry on occasion and have never been bothered. That is not to say it can't happen though.

I never OC when I go down to the city of Atlanta.
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Old April 26, 2014, 11:45 AM   #21
steve4102
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I open carry, my choice in MN.

I have practiced drawing my firearm both concealed and open, IME digging my firearm out of it's hiding place takes way to long. Hiding my firearm under layers of clothing concealing it from a potential BG does not out way the ease at which I can Access my Open Carry gun. YMMV
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Old April 26, 2014, 03:56 PM   #22
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Thanks SocialAnarchist for the description of your situation. Being known in your area is undoubtedly a good thing. That and a dose of common sense among those around you including law enforcement should make your life and everyone elses easier.

When the carry law in MN was being discussed someone tried open carry in the Twin Cities metro area and it was about 15 minutes before the police were questioning him about his actions and intent. I do NOT want to start a debate about THAT issue, we've had 'em here before, I am just saying that IS what happened and I'd be interested in what happens to SA too. I remain of the opinion that concealed is usually better than open carry but that's just me.

Good luck, SA.
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Old April 26, 2014, 04:23 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris in va
Well, not sure about WI but many so-called 'open carry' states simply don't have a law disallowing the practice, allowing it by proxy. Just keep that in mind. You may still get a 'MWAG' call and accompanying Terry search and temporary detainment in front of a few dozen onlookers. It happened a couple years ago here in Louisville and almost happened to me in VA.
There is no such thing as allowing anything "by proxy." If there isn't a law prohibiting something, that something is legal. "Proxy" doesn't enter into the discussion.

Definition:

Full Definition of PROXY
1: the agency, function, or office of a deputy who acts as a substitute for another

2a: authority or power to act for another
b: a document giving such authority; specifically : a power of attorney authorizing a specified person to vote corporate stock

3: a person authorized to act for another : procurator

Quote:
CA specifically banned the practice after OC groups got carried away with their outings.
On the other hand, Ohio didn't allow concealed carry. The Ohio Supreme Court ruled that the state constitution specifically enumerated a right to carry, and thus said that if concealed carry was banned open carry had to be allowed. So Ohioans began open carrying, and magically within a couple of years Ohio had a new law establishing a concealed carry license system. The usual suspects (tm) naturally predicted blood overflowing the gutters, which of course failed to materialize
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Old April 28, 2014, 12:34 PM   #24
maestro
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I don't know where to start with this, so I'll start with a mini intro. I am SA's son. WI resident, same county,OC'd for well over a year before I got my CCL, OC'd in the same grocery store on an almost daily basis, as well as everywhere else I went. I carried (and when I OC, I still do), in a Fobus paddle holster.

Alright, let's get started. There will be a lot of specific's pertaining to Open carry in Wisconsin, and there will be a lot of personal opinion and experiences tied in as well. It will be broken up with my reply to each post I think needed some clarification, so if you don't want to read it all just look for your post.
I AM NOT TRYING TO BE ARROGANT OR OFFENSIVE. I just feel that people need to get the correct facts and information about OC in my area, with the addition of my personal experience to paint a clear picture.

MY CHOICES AND PREFERENCES DON'T HAVE TO BE YOUR CHOICES AND PREFERENCE. I am not saying that what I do will work for you in your area. On the flipside of that, YOU can't expect what works for YOU to be the ONLY thing that will work for everyone anywhere. YMMV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaleA
Just out of curiosity, roughly what age are you and what's your appearance like?
I figured this was important for ME to address, so that you all can paint the picture of myself while I talk about my experiences later on. I'm 24, 6' tall, 260. Short hair, clean shaven or 5 o'clock shadow. My daily attire ranges anything from nice jeans, to BDU's, to Blauer/Dickie style EMS pants, to ratty jeans with more holes than denim left, with a tshirt, cut off, or hooded sweatshirt as my top. Normally in boots, but could be Crocs to sandals to tennis shoes as well.

And DaleA, as far as OC in our area, it has gone flawlessly for the last almost 2 years for me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sgms
When they do say something it will most likely be in a panic phone call to the police so be ready to deal with them... Kinda wonder how it would go down now.
In our County, it doesn't happen. Dispatch, and the Deputies, have been informed about open carry in Wisconsin extensively over the last 4 or 5 years. There was actually a big ordeal about 4 years ago in one of our bigger cities, because the city ordinance was different from the way the State perceives open carry. So there was extensive training/discussions between LE Departments about the legality of open carry. All the Deputies I've ever spoken to while armed have never even mentioned my weapon, and I had an extensive conversation with our local Police Chief in the gas station one day while I was armed. We're very luck in this county to have a fairly educated police force on open carry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Servo
That's not a very good holster in general, and it's terrible for open carry. It's floppy and has almost no retention.
I can't speak to the quality of the XDS holster, but I'm calling complete shenanigans on it being a terrible STYLE holster for open carry. I carried, and still do, in a Fobus paddle that is designed the same way with the same intent on retention. Situational awareness is the key. Isn't that what we all preach about any being defensive minded people? I don't care if you have a leather thumbreak holster, a 5.11 thumbdrive holster, or a SERPA style holster. If I want your gun, I will have your gun. It's that simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Servo
But by carrying in that holster in the meantime, you're exposing yourself to risk.

No more risk than by choosing not to carry because of the holster. Pretty sure if you needed your weapon to defend your wife, children, or own life, you'd rather have it in what you see as a sub-par holster, than think "Uh-oh, I left my gun at home today!" while your family is being harmed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreyzhorse
Tom has a great point about the holster. If I were going to open carry, a good leather holster with some type of retention would be my priority.
I disagree. Situational awareness is far more important to me than carrying in a retention holster. Like I said above, leather with retention, kydex with retention, whatever; If I want your gun I will have it. From a guy who open carried for over a year in a passive retention holster, not once did it fall out, not once was I not aware of my surroundings, and not once did I feel I was putting myself at risk for not having a strap over it or a piece of plastic that locked into the trigger guard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris in va
Well, not sure about WI but many so-called 'open carry' states simply don't have a law disallowing the practice
Article 1, Section 25 of the WI State Constitution reads " The people have the right to keep and bear arms for security, defense, hunting, recreation or any other lawful purpose."

In April of 2009, our State Attorney General released a memo that said "¶1. Under Article I, § 25 of the Wisconsin Constitution, a person has the right to openly carry a firearm for any of the purposes enumerated in that Section, subject to reasonable regulation as discussed herein." In that same memo, he went on to say that "The Wisconsin Department of Justice (the Department) believes that the mere open carrying of a firearm by a person, absent additional facts and circumstances, should not result in a disorderly conduct charge from a prosecutor. " So while it specifically say "Open carry is legal," it does say the people of this state have the right to bear arms for security, defense, etc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chris in va
CA specifically banned the practice after OC groups got carried away with their outings.
There was a court case in February where the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals overturned restrictions on carrying concealed weapons in California, and that has sparked a push back against lawmakers in CA to try and get OC legalized again. OC isn't specifically illegal statewide in CA. From opencarry.org "California is not a traditional open carry state. Open carry is generally prohibited except in unincorporated areas where the county has not made open carry illegal, or, pursuant to a CA open carry permit issued and valid only in a county with a population of less than 200,000 persons."

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris in va
Now I do seem to remember a WI OC guy a few years ago getting a monetary settlement for getting arrested, so hopefully various over zealous LEO's got the memo.
That has happened a few times in the state actually, the big one being "The Madison 5" Culver's incident.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mete
It still gives the BG the advantage since you've given up th element of suprise !!
More shenanigans. I've heard this argument literally hundreds of times. Show me the proof. Show me documented incidents where it was reported that an OC'er was shot, or the first person shot, at an incident. I've read more stories, been told face to face more stories, and can provide transcripts of such stories, just in WI about how merely OPEN CARRYING their pistol, having their pistol OPENLY VISIBLE on their hip, has diffused more situations than it has made them victims. I'm not in favor of OC over CC. I'm in favor of using actual facts and evidence to back up a standpoint. (Which I can provide if you'd like.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by nc-oldfart
With as many thing gone so wrong will leos any more my worry leans more toward a stressed out or or over zealous officer showing up with pistol draw ready to shot first.
Be polite, be courteous, keep your damn hand away from your weapon, be knowledgeable of your state laws pertaining to open carry and there won't be a single problem. If you dress like a drug dealing meth head and OC a pistol, yeah you're gonna have a bad day. If you dress like an everyday blue collar/white collar guy, and aren't rude to the LEO, you won't have a problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Servo
There is a real element of risk in the possibility of a gun grab. Carrying in a holster with no retention increases that risk.
Disagree completely. Poor situational awareness will create a much higher risk for a gun grab than having a holster with passive retention. I've run drills on this with my friends and family, people I TRUST. I've told them in the morning "Hey, throughout the day try and grab my gun from holster. Be sneaky, be obvious, I don't care, just don't TELL me you're going to do it." And not a single one of them could do it. The thing other than situational awareness is to know how to react if you are caught off guard, know how to resist the gun grab and retain your weapon. A pancake holster with a thumbreak is just as easy to gun grab from as a kydex holster with passive retention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by orangello
Though carry in a less-than-perfect holster could increase the risk of a "gun grab", not carrying due to the lack of a better holster also carries a risk. You have the risk of losing control of your firearm versus the risk of not having your firearm when you may need it; consequences could range from financial loss to the loss of your life.
Financial loss to the loss of you life is a risk everyday, regardless if you OC, CC, or don't carry. I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it than not have it. Even if the holster I choose to carry in doesn't please the gun community of the internet. If you maintain situational awareness, and are aware of counter measures of a potential gun grab, there's no problem carrying in a passive retention holster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lt. Skrumpledonk Ret
Something tells me that an idiot thug intent on attempting to FORCIBLY TAKE A LOADED GUN FROM YOU doesn't care if there is a retention holster involved or not. That idiot might not even know what the difference is. Either the open-carrier is a weak target and falling-down drunk, or the guy attempting to disarm him has an IQ below 75 and is going to try it no matter what.
Amen. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Servo
If the purpose of carrying a gun is to reduce risk, it doesn't make much sense to introduce an element of risk back into the equation.
Unless you need your gun, and you chose not to carry it because you didn't have the holster of your choice, and were stuck using something that you deem inferior that other people carry in with no problem on a daily basis. Have and not need, over need and not have, regardless of whatever holster I have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Water-Man
I open carry on occasion and have never been bothered. That is not to say it can't happen though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve4102
I open carry, my choice in MN.
Good for you both. It's nice to have the option to carry how you choose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve4102
I have practiced drawing my firearm both concealed and open, IME digging my firearm out of it's hiding place takes way to long. Hiding my firearm under layers of clothing concealing it from a potential BG does not out way the ease at which I can Access my Open Carry gun. YMMV
Couldn't have said it better myself. My carry method changes with the weather and how many layers I have on for that specific reason, the time it takes to dig it out of concealment with heavy winter clothes on doesn't outweigh my open carrying.

I am NOT trying to come on here, and be a jerk. I love a good debate, and a lot of you posted a lot of things that I disagree with that I could spark a good debate from. I sincerely do not intend to offend anyone with my replies, however just like everyone else I have my own personal opinions, and experiences, and a lot of time researching this topic.

Last edited by maestro; April 28, 2014 at 01:57 PM.
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Old April 28, 2014, 04:25 PM   #25
Tom Servo
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Quote:
Disagree completely. Poor situational awareness will create a much higher risk for a gun grab than having a holster with passive retention. I've run drills on this with my friends and family, people I TRUST.
There are a couple of problems with this approach.

First off, I don't carry a gun to protect me from people I trust. I carry one because there are violent, brutal people out there. Those people aren't going to be polite or give me warning, and they're probably stronger and tougher than I am. Those are the folks who disarm police officers, who are trained in retention. Against someone like that, the average civilian doesn't have much of a chance.

Second, perfect situational awareness isn't possible. I can't monitor everyone if I'm in the middle of a crowd.
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