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Old November 28, 2012, 08:34 AM   #26
mikecu
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The Beretta Nano is a good choice for a small 9mm.
.380 ammo is significantly more expensive.
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Old November 28, 2012, 09:00 AM   #27
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I always find it interesting when people reference the relative unlikelihood of needing their gun as justification for shooting one that may be inadequate. If one lived in a war zone, one would want a full-size high capacity gun, but if one lives in suburbia, a 5 or 6 shot, small caliber gun is fine.

But whats the difference? What gun you carry only matters if you have the need to use it to defend your life. In that moment, it doesn't matter if you are in Kandahar or Baltimore, you want a gun that you can use to save your life. If you don't think you'll need a gun, that is relevant to the choice of whether to carry a gun at all. If you are carrying it, you are preparing for the possibility of needing it, and if you need it why would you want to be limited to such a tiny weapon?

Just my opinion. I still of course think it is better to carry the LCP than nothing. I just don't see why a subcompact 9mm can't fill that role much better for the vast, vast majority of people.
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Old November 28, 2012, 10:11 AM   #28
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I don't have a problem with 380 itself- I have been carrying a Beretta 84FS Cheetah. What I don't like with most 380s are the guns themselves - most are just too small to shoot well which to me is more important than how concealable they are. But most people buy them because of their small size and hence the LCP and many like it that sell so well. I can see why people like them but I can carry a bigger gun IWB and keep my pocket free for other stuff. And yes you can get a 9mm (or bigger these days) that's the same size or smaller that the Cheetah (and I have a couple and do use them) but I personally like and shoot well the Cheetah.

I agree that a 9mm is better in one regard - Price! 380s make range visits more expensive.
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Old November 28, 2012, 10:16 AM   #29
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Scotchman, I see your point, but I don’t know how else to phrase it other than this...
I'm simply not paranoid enough or so fearful of others or of being attacked that I'm willing to miserably lug around a large gun year after year.

I think your luck (attack circumstances) and your level of practice makes a much bigger difference than what you carry.
The average SD incident statistically averages 2-3 rounds fired... practice often and make them count.

fwiw... I carry the LCP in suburbia and I carry the PM9 at work or when I have to go into the hoods of North St Louis, I even step up to the G27 occasionally in really bad areas in warm weather when the streets are just crawling with hoodlums in packs.
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Old November 28, 2012, 10:34 AM   #30
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Interesting.......

There are discussions going on about the suitability of .22lr for self defense and seems the discussions are not so much focused on ballistics, penetration, etc...... but always seems to find it's way to......"shot placement is the key".

So, with that in mind, is there a caliber/SD round combo that renders this rule inapplicable?

I mean, if purchasing such a setup means I don't need to practice and train to protect and defend myself simply by buying one of these, I'll save TONS of money on ammo!

btw.....I CCW a .380 with complete confidence.
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Old November 28, 2012, 10:40 AM   #31
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I'm simply not paranoid enough or so fearful of others or of being attacked that I'm willing to miserably lug around a large gun year after year.
We're not talking about so big of a difference as if the choices are carrying a Desert Eagle or an LCP. That's what I don't personally understand about those that keep advocating the LCP based on weight. We're talking a few ounces max difference in weight. And before folks start talking about how ounces add up, I get that. But with a decent IWB holster weight really isn't a massive issue. And I'm someone who when carries does so for 12 hrs a day.

Quote:
I always find it interesting when people reference the relative unlikelihood of needing their gun as justification for shooting one that may be inadequate. If one lived in a war zone, one would want a full-size high capacity gun, but if one lives in suburbia, a 5 or 6 shot, small caliber gun is fine.
I also find this notion hilarious. "I don't live in a war zone". If I lived in a war zone, I sure as heck wouldn't be carrying around a pistol. I'd by carrying around a rifle. It's true that the vast majority of us will never have to use our CCW to defend ourselves. But to me it's worth the minute extra hassle to carry a 9mm as opposed to the 380 to gain the increase in penetration. YMMV.
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Old November 28, 2012, 10:42 AM   #32
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Just by asking the question, I think the OP knows the answer. It's interesting that no one every asks whether 9mm, 40S&W or .45 are adequate defensive rounds (in defensive loads). It is also interesting that few people ask about .25acp, 22LR or even .32 acp when it comes to a self-defense pistol-round.

However, there are lots of inquiries about .380 - is it good enough or too weak. Its similar to the question of whether you can use 5.56 to hunt deer. The one difference is that there really is no good justification to hunt deer with 5.56, even thought it is sometimes done effectively. And, "it's all I can afford" doesn't cut it - obviously someone hunting deer is already spending money on gear, license, stand, etc. - there's no reason you can't get a scoped 30-06 for $300 (I did), which is about the cost of a used tree stand plus license.

On the other hand, concealment and ease of carry is a valid reason to consider .380. I do believe that if you question whether .380 has enough punch for self-defense, then it probably doesn't.
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Old November 28, 2012, 11:01 AM   #33
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The short answer is sometimes.

Personally, I prefer a larger gun in a more powerful cartridge. My ccw is a full size with a 15 round magazine full of 357 Sig. I feel more comfortable, not only with the cartridges performance and the gun's capacity but also in my ability to rapidly and accurately place shots on target.

The strength of the 380 is the small size of the guns it is chambered in which make it easy to always have them with you and any gun is much better than an empty hand. That small size is also it's biggest weakness. Not only do you give up ammo capacity but smaller guns are generally harder to shoot effectively.

My 2¢...

A 380 is MUCH better than nothing but I would much rather have a larger and more powerful gun when I can and that is pretty much all the time. I carry a full size M&P in jeans and a t-shirt. Something like a CW9 would be very easy to conceal, imo.
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Old November 28, 2012, 11:22 AM   #34
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Just my opinion. I still of course think it is better to carry the LCP than nothing. I just don't see why a subcompact 9mm can't fill that role much better for the vast, vast majority of people.
The LCP is my EDC because no matter what I'm wearing if it has a pocket I'm armed, I don't see a 9mm filling that role and I for one have a hard time believing that I'll ever say crap I wish I had a .9mm instead of the .380acp. When I carry a full size gun it's a .45
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Old November 28, 2012, 11:34 AM   #35
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..before folks start talking about how ounces add up, I get that. But with a decent IWB holster weight really isn't a massive issue..
No, not a massive difference, but I definitely notice the difference between my PM9 and LCP. I'm simply more comfortable carrying the LCP in my own environment - suburbia, Home-Depot, Wal-mart, etc.
The difference is even more noticable in the summer with just shorts and a t-shirt.
The PM is just a bit fatter, a bit heavier, and prints a bit more... all enough to make the LCP more desirable on a hot day.
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Old November 28, 2012, 01:12 PM   #36
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Do you wear a belt?............
Did you read my post?
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Old November 28, 2012, 01:41 PM   #37
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LCP in my back pocket, with Hornaday Critical Defence loads,and a LC9 on my left hip in a Crossbreed Mini Tuk.

But on occasion,when it's hot,or around the property, I'll just carry the LCP.
It works well for me within seven yards,and is comfortable to shoot with the Hogue grip.
Oh..and that's with a heavy duty belt,and I swear, by you some suspenders!! lol
They work great,you don't have to cinch your belt real tight.
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Old November 28, 2012, 02:53 PM   #38
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For the most discrete carry the Elsie Pea is perfect. Any number of modern, name brand standard pressure rounds (Ruger clearly states NO +P in the LCP) are quite capable as a civilian CCW round. Especially during hot weather conditions where lighter clothing is worn by both the possible attacker, and the potential victim. It also makes a great BUG when a larger weapon may be more concealable with heavier, or more layers of clothing.
While the LC9 is also small, it is slightly larger than the KAHR PM/CM series. However I still find my CM9 more difficult to conceal in my pocket than my Elsie Pea, and a lot harder to get a smooth and reliable draw from most of my pants pockets. Therefor I carry my Elsie in a DeSantis Superfly pocket holster in my front pocket. But the KAHR rides in a Theis IWB hybrid holster.

Quote:
I don't think there is a production nine that is only 3.6" tall, only 5.16" overall length and weighs just under 9.5 onces, and that's what the base LCP comes in at.
There is one that is 3.7" tall, 5.2 long, but 4 more ounces heavier. But at the price of FOUR Elsie Peas, or FIVE P3AT KelTecs. So if you just don't trust the 380 ACP, and have the 14 Benjamins to shell out get a Rohrbaugh R9.
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Old November 28, 2012, 03:03 PM   #39
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I sold my LCP in favor of a Kahr PM9. It's hardly any bigger and is much more pleasant to shoot.
But, I couldn't resist purchasing a Colt Mustang Pocketlite. They are .380
but such a neat little pistol. Fun to shoot, too. Uses the same holster as my LCP did...
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Old December 16, 2012, 08:09 PM   #40
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Yes, the lcp in general is a reliable weapon, the 380 acp is a good round as long as you know it's limitations. With a good loading this round good, not great but good. I carry one but chose the kahr p380. I am lucky so far to have a good one and I mainly choose this because I shoot it fairly often and it shoots great. I carry hornady xtps in mine, will be getting some buffalo bore soon though
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Old December 16, 2012, 08:24 PM   #41
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Careful..some people think anything lower than something starting with a "4" will bounce off. lol
But it does bounce off you! I just bought some .380 repellent. It also works on .22 and .32 calibers! LOL

All joking aside I think a .380 is great for a pocket gun or used as a BUG but, for main carry I would go with 9mm or higher.

I have a old West German made Walther PPKS .380 that I got from my Father that I like somewhat. It's accurate but the slide bites me on my thumb knuckle. I would only use it as a BUG.
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Old December 16, 2012, 08:41 PM   #42
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Sure .380 is enough. LCP with Speer Gold dot is what I carry.
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Old December 16, 2012, 08:45 PM   #43
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Is the .380acp in lcp good enough in your opinion?
If you're looking for a small easily concealed .380 then the answer is yes.

Quote:
Good enough for a main ccw?
In my opinion, no.

I'm no fan of the .380 or pistols that small.
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Old December 16, 2012, 09:24 PM   #44
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The LCP is what I put in my pocket (literally) with a pocket holster, when I just can't carry anything any bigger. It's not ideal. I consider the 380 to be too weak, and I absolutely hate that long trigger pull. But it's better than nothing.
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Old December 16, 2012, 09:39 PM   #45
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Is the 380 round good enough??? You tube has a demo with spare ribs in front of a hunk of meat. The round fired was a 380 Hornady critical defense. I think the distance was something like 10-15 feet or so. At any rate, the round flattened out at the rib and stopped. Then again, 22 rounds have done is lots of folks. I have a 380 but carry Buffalo Bore 100gr +P hardcast for the first 3 rounds, then alternate with BB's +P JHP's. Will that work? Depends on what I hit! The news today reported that a highway patrol officer fired some rounds and hit a person who was taken to the hospital with non-life threatening injuries. I don't know what they carry, but it may be a 40 cal. I was told that a well placed BB is better than a 50 cal miss any day. I think to practice tactical scenarios and not spending all your time on paper will help. Join a gun club that has that kind of training. You may find some folks that can train you safely and properly. It's also fun.
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Old December 16, 2012, 09:45 PM   #46
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Yea, the PM9 is a vastly better shooting gun in every way than the LCP, miles apart really.
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Old December 16, 2012, 09:47 PM   #47
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Love my LCP 100% faith in it's function. I carry Hydra shok's they've worked 100% so far.
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Old December 16, 2012, 09:58 PM   #48
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Quote:
Quote by ritepath: I carry Hydra shok's they've worked 100% so far.
Are you saying you have had to use your .380 in a SD HD incident?

I am also on the side of .380 not being enough as a "Primary carry" gun but, is a good BUG caliber if you had to use your BUG.

There are a number of compact 9mm guns that would be better choices to fill the role of the BUG.
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Old December 16, 2012, 11:23 PM   #49
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It's good enough if you are proficient with it. Saying that one needs to know the .380's limitations is true as it is for every other handgun round. You should know what any round you use is capable of. And I mean by actual practice and real world shooting.

The main thing with any round is hitting accurately with consistency under any circumstances which only comes from practice. Practice and more practice is the only way you can be proficient with any handgun much less a very small one like a .380 or small 9mm etc.

Please don't anyone take this personally but imo until someone has at least a couple thousand rounds of serious practice they are likely not very good with a handgun yet however they have significant experience. Not enough to have that much of an advantage on the average bg though. I will add though that a lot of dry fire practice can make up for less actual rounds being fired. Someone who is good with a .380 can beat the average guy with a 9mm. There are people I'd rather have help me using a .380 than most anybody else with whatever handgun.

To me the .380 good enough because I will carry it when I would have left a larger gun behind. It's good enough to me because I am confident that I could use it to save my family or someone else's life under many circumstances. Any gun can also be used to help keep the bg away from you enough to allow for an escape. A bg can walk right up to you if you don't have a gun but if you shoot at them they tend to want to avoid being hit. Even a .22 can be helpful here. Most of the time though a larger easier to handle 9mm or better is more comforting.

So yes a .380 is good enough if you are.
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Old December 17, 2012, 12:42 AM   #50
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My primary carry these days is a Sig 232, I don't tend to get too caught up in caliber but I feel perfectly comfortable carrying 7+1 of .380, especially since I can shoot 2" groups at 25 ft in rapid fire with this gun. There are 9mm's the same size as the 232 but I don't shoot them nearly as well, also none of the 9mm's in that size range are DA/SA. I am in no way recoil shy, my carry gun for 2 years was a .357 snub that I used to load with hot 125gr rounds, I just really like the 232. I shoot it well, it conceals easily, feels great in the hand, I prefer it's DA/SA platform, and it's a damn nice looking gun (not usually the case in small carry pistols). If they made the 232 in 9mm it would probably be my favorite handgun of all time, and I don't see why they cant. I know blow back pistols don't do well with high pressure rounds but sticking with standard pressure 9mm could work.

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