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Old December 3, 2012, 06:00 AM   #151
Odd
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I'm kind of torn on this one. Firearms can be defined as a weapon or as a piece of machinery designed to expel projectiles at high velocities: Neither are wrong. Machetes are generally classified as agricultural implements but were used during the Rwandan genocide. In the end, words are merely words while actions speak for themselves.

When I think of the first projectile weapon, it was most likely either a rock or a sharpened piece of stick. In that case, would the weapon be the rock/sharp stick, the man throwing it or both? Unlike math which is cold and absolute, words evoke emotions and carry multiple meanings.

Looking at the evolution of warfare and weapons, the human factor is gradually diminishing. A time where man would kill an enemy with his bare hands to a time where man can kill with a press of a switch. Separate the man from the machine, the machine cannot kill on its own* but man can still function independently as a weapon.

I hate to consider objects as weapons since just about any object, no matter how benign, can be weaponized. I also feel that ultimately every man is accountable for his own actions. To even place partial blame on an inanimate object goes against my principles, as the murderer will be 100% responsible in my eyes. At any rate the 2nd Amendment is most definitely not about sporting or hunting, that is a given. In the end I feel there is no wrong or right answer.

*Excluding landmines and traps.
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Old December 3, 2012, 09:15 AM   #152
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Odd View Post
I'm kind of torn on this one. Firearms can be defined as a weapon or as a piece of machinery designed to expel projectiles at high velocities: Neither are wrong. Machetes are generally classified as agricultural implements but were used during the Rwandan genocide. In the end, words are merely words while actions speak for themselves.

When I think of the first projectile weapon, it was most likely either a rock or a sharpened piece of stick. In that case, would the weapon be the rock/sharp stick, the man throwing it or both? Unlike math which is cold and absolute, words evoke emotions and carry multiple meanings.

Looking at the evolution of warfare and weapons, the human factor is gradually diminishing. A time where man would kill an enemy with his bare hands to a time where man can kill with a press of a switch. Separate the man from the machine, the machine cannot kill on its own* but man can still function independently as a weapon.

I hate to consider objects as weapons since just about any object, no matter how benign, can be weaponized. I also feel that ultimately every man is accountable for his own actions. To even place partial blame on an inanimate object goes against my principles, as the murderer will be 100% responsible in my eyes. At any rate the 2nd Amendment is most definitely not about sporting or hunting, that is a given. In the end I feel there is no wrong or right answer.

*Excluding landmines and traps.
Your own words betray your attempted rationalization.

"Looking at the evolution of warfare and weapons..."

What weapons? If usage of an object is the defining characteristic of whether or not an object is a weapon, there are no "weapons" to evolve. There would be "things" that people sometimes use as weapons, that they are changing to make the use of those non-weapon things more effective when they choose to use those not-always-weapons as weapons.

The way you use the word weapon in that sentence, without definition or qualification, implies that you expect the reader to understand what the word weapon means... and you'd be right.

We all subconsciously know that firearms are weapons and we use the word accordingly. We have to consciously attempt to rationalize it away if we decide we don't like it. It's not the typical (or logical) understanding to think they're not weapons.
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Old December 3, 2012, 11:54 AM   #153
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I just finished a research report on Gun Control in America for my final in my College poli-sci class…………..and I used "weapon" quite a few times
Looking back do you think you could have not used the word weapon in your paper ? If it was a must could you have used it much less ?
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Old December 3, 2012, 12:20 PM   #154
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That has the quality of something the DOD would come up with, don't you think?
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Old December 3, 2012, 07:39 PM   #155
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You can't go wrong by calling it a firearm.

Trapshooter
Hunter
Soldier
Collector

Its the same to all of the above.
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Old December 4, 2012, 12:35 AM   #156
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Whenever I had to register a handgun in the history of the old rules, the cop always told me, "Your weapon is on the desk," "Your card is with your weapon," i.e. they never seemed to call it a gun. It stuck and I've always called it a weapon. That's what it is anyway, as I see it, so I don't mind the term at all and use it myself quite a bit, though I don't have an aversion to the term gun or firearm, either.

I do HATE the term gat, or any of the others that seemed to come from the 'hood. I have an original Gat, which is a pellet gun, and I've always wondered it that is where the term originated.
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I am the weapon; my gun is a tool. It's regrettable that with some people those descriptors are reversed.
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Old December 4, 2012, 07:29 AM   #157
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Old December 4, 2012, 10:42 AM   #158
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I hate the term 'piece'. In class, once a guy drew his roscoe and on the draw threw it down range about 10 feet. He said: OH, I lost my piece.

How about gat?

Have we concluded yet that we will not change any anti's mind by not calling boom thingees weapons?

Bob Costas wouldn't call for a tool ban?
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Old December 4, 2012, 12:35 PM   #159
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OK this is my last post on this thread

It's not about the anti's or the pro guys . It's about the undecideds . We will never convince antis a gun is not a WMD just like you will never convince the pro guys that a semi auto AR is an assualt rifle . It's about being able to pull some over to your side that are still on the fence or have no real dog in the race or what ever metaphor you wish .
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Old December 4, 2012, 02:15 PM   #160
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Quote:
It's not about the anti's or the pro guys . It's about the undecideds . We will never convince antis a gun is not a WMD just like you will never convince the pro guys that a semi auto AR is an assualt rifle . It's about being able to pull some over to your side that are still on the fence or have no real dog in the race or what ever metaphor you wish .
The best way to get an undecided onto our side is to take them out shooting. Changing our lingo will in no way make them decide one way or another. Take them shooting and in 9 times out of 10, you've just made another shooter.
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Old December 4, 2012, 03:48 PM   #161
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Have not read through all these posts but, what's wrong with calling it what it is? Don't mean to sound disrespectful but, IMO, one of the biggest problems in this country today is all this 'political correctness' crap.

If I'm in a conversation with someone and the topic is about a SD situation or a killing(justified or not) in which a weapon was used , weapon, is a normal term used. Doesn't matter if the SD tool used is a firearm,knife,stick or for that matter hands/feet.
You can put a dress and makeup on a hog but it's still a hog.

If I'm talking to someone about going hunting, I don't refer to my choice of hunting tool as a weapon. I'll say bow,shotgun, BP rifle etc.

Quote:
Bob Costas wouldn't call for a tool ban?
This is exactly right. Costas used the word(s) gun and guns. Not weapon.
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Old December 4, 2012, 04:08 PM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shortwave
Have not read through all these posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by shortwave
This is exactly right. Costas used the word(s) gun and guns. Not weapon.
You missed the part where it was determined, that Merriam-Webster, the Law, the hallowed halls of academia, various editors and writers, some of whom are in the highest percentiles of those who read and comprehend the english language, all agreed, that the words weapon and firearm, were synonymous. All weapons aren't firearms, but all firearms are weapons, all the time. Intent, use, etc have no bearing on their classification either.

It was also the consensus of those mentioned above, that it wasn't incorrect to consider ones listening audience, when using certain terms for firearms. Nothing requires an individual to use, or not use the term weapon, when and where they see fit. It is however incorrect, to not acknowledge, that all firearms and ammunition are weapons. Whether, they as an individual like the term, or use the term, matters not.

I certainly mean none of the above as offensive to anyone. Its not my opinion of the way things should be either, its just the facts. Read it in a calm relaxed tone too, because that was my mood when I wrote it.
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Old December 4, 2012, 04:42 PM   #163
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Why hell Nate, according to this and my post...

...
Quote:
... the part where it was determined, that Merriam-Webster, the Law, the hallowed halls of academia, various editors and writers, some of whom are in the highest percentiles of those who read and comprehend the english language, all agreed, that the words weapon and firearm, were synonymous. All weapons aren't firearms, but all firearms are weapons, all the time. Intent, use, etc have no bearing on their classification either.
....

...looks like I fit right in.

And yes, although whichever hunting tool I'm using IS technically a weapon, I just don't generally say to my brother (that is routinely late for every hunt we go on ) "your late again, grab your weapon lets go".

I generally say "your late again, grab your shotgun lets go".

Again, either way would be correct.
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Old December 4, 2012, 04:59 PM   #164
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Exactly correct.
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Old December 4, 2012, 05:13 PM   #165
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I call my firearm a "johnson". Seems to end inquiries and conversations pretty quickly, for some reason.
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Old December 4, 2012, 05:18 PM   #166
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I call my firearm a "johnson"....
pnac,

Are you suggesting I tell my brother, " you're late again, grab your johnson and lets go" ?
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Old December 4, 2012, 05:43 PM   #167
Baba Louie
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rifle
shotgun
handgun
smokepole
firestick
boomstick
little firestick

You can call me Ray
You can call me Jay

If the word "weapon" weirds you or others out, stick with the top three. You'll do fine. Who cares about them?
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Old December 4, 2012, 06:28 PM   #168
Glenn E. Meyer
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Well, that's all she wrote.

I think the last posts show we have exhausted rational discourse on this topic.

Thanks to all for a fascinating discussion. It will surface again, it is a common one.

GEM
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