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Old November 29, 2012, 05:47 PM   #126
Gaerek
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Some of my firearms are weapons, some are hunting firearms, and orther are target pistols. I name them according to their original design or my intended use.
*cough* A hunting firearm, by definition, must be a weapon.

I do want to make myself clear. I rarely call my guns, weapons. I'm not saying that weapon is the proper term to use. But, guns are weapons, and no manner of semantic shenanigans will every change that. If you wish to use the term, fine, go for it. If you don't want to use the term, that's fine too. BUT, we all much agree that guns are weapons...anything else is disingenuous.
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Old November 29, 2012, 06:18 PM   #127
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Pizza is not food until you eat it. It could be a hat or a seat cushion.

Give me a break.

If you know psych literature (moi), the appearance of firearms engenders aggressive ideation. Pizza probably doesn't.

I again say that avoiding the purpose of firearms is surrendering the right to have to antis. They postulate that they are aprior evil instruments and necessarily detrimental to society.
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Old November 29, 2012, 07:02 PM   #128
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I suppose things will pay out in the courts of public opinion.

In the meantime, know I AM on the side of the 2nd Amendment. I just want us to speak in terms and cultivate an image that encourages others to support our rights (including defense, not just sport/hunting) as well.

-Out.
BC while I have been very clear in my disagreement with your assertion that weapons is a word to be avoided when discussing firearms, I do respect your desire for all of us to be good ambassadors representing the gun community. We can disagree on how that is best done, but it is an important topic worthy of discussion. Peace.
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Old November 29, 2012, 07:20 PM   #129
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Pizza is not food until you eat it. It could be a hat or a seat cushion.
Give me a break


Wow, this thread just keeps on going and going. I myself agree with Glenn et al that avoiding the use of the term is pandering to the anti-gun forces. Call it what it is... a device with the potential for being used to inflict damage/death on the recipient. That doesn't mean that the use of the device is always intended to harm, but it could be.
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Old November 30, 2012, 06:13 AM   #130
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Next time I go Duck Hunting I'll be sure and bring my Shotweapon with me...

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Old November 30, 2012, 10:12 AM   #131
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Just to put a little more spin on this thread, if you read the Supreme Court's Miller decision, "weapons" are much more constitutionally protected than other types of guns (assuming that some guns are not really weapons.) Be careful what points you concede. The "sporting use" clause in GCA'68 is a trap.
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Old November 30, 2012, 12:14 PM   #132
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To reiterate. Guns are weapons. Is this true or false? If an anti-gunner asked if you carried a weapon, would you lie and tell him no? These are pertinent to the topic. Not FPS Russia and his vendetta against watermelons. If you'd like to discuss that, I'd suggest starting a new thread with that as the topic.
No. But I don't carry a BB gun, a Hammerli, or an Anschutz. Those are not designed to be used as weapons.

And honestly there are cases where I will not use the term "weapon" even when it is a gun designed for use as a weapon.

The number one reason is it's usually it's not specific enough- that goes without saying- weapon could 100 different things. "My Remington model 11" is more specific- although my son referred to it as an A-5 last week.

The second reason is I don't feel "weapon" is a suitable term for what boy scouts and cub scouts are training with. Or any other children for that matter. Their mommies will away with their precious little babies in tow. And their babies will stay that way until we see them in an Occupy Wall Street rally, where they have developed into big babies.

IMO, the only way the fight for the Second Amendment will be won is to bring as many people as possible into shooting, not in logical debates with "anti-gunners". In that case, the "W" word turns a lot of people away, and just isn't necessary.
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Old November 30, 2012, 12:28 PM   #133
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No. But I don't carry a BB gun, a Hammerli, or an Anschutz. Those are not designed to be used as weapons.

And honestly there are cases where I will not use the term "weapon" even when it is a gun designed for use as a weapon.

The number one reason is it's usually it's not specific enough- that goes without saying- weapon could 100 different things. "My Remington model 11" is more specific- although my son referred to it as an A-5 last week.

The second reason is I don't feel "weapon" is a suitable term for what boy scouts and cub scouts are training with. Or any other children for that matter. Their mommies will away with their precious little babies in tow. And their babies will stay that way until we see them in an Occupy Wall Street rally, where they have developed into big babies.

IMO, the only way the fight for the Second Amendment will be won is to bring as many people as possible into shooting, not in logical debates with "anti-gunners". In that case, the "W" word turns a lot of people away, and just isn't necessary.
This is still pandering the the uninformed. I'm not advocating only used the term, or using it all. All I'm trying to say is, a gun is a weapon. The handgun you carry on your hip, is a weapon. All guns (regardless of their actual designed use) have their roots in other guns that were used as weapons.

Again, I don't really use the term when referring to guns of any kind usually, but it still doesn't change the fact that guns are weapons. To say they are not weapons (not saying you're saying this, mainly for the OP who wants to change the term) is a big fat lie.
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Old November 30, 2012, 05:42 PM   #134
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In USMC bootcamp you didn't dare call, your rifle a gun. Serious consequences would result...
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Old November 30, 2012, 07:44 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by wayeninFL
The second reason is I don't feel "weapon" is a suitable term for what boy scouts and cub scouts are training with. Or any other children for that matter. Their mommies will away with their precious little babies in tow. And their babies will stay that way until we see them in an Occupy Wall Street rally, where they have developed into big babies.
As previously stated, the word weapon is specifically prohibited on BSA ranges per NCS/NRA requirements. Woe be unto the poor instructor who calls a rifle a weapon in front of some of the mothers from som Atlanta troops. Bad day all around for everybody. The kid, the instuctor, the BSA, and the shooting community as a whole.
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Old November 30, 2012, 08:43 PM   #136
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When will all the pc crap end.
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Old December 1, 2012, 12:02 AM   #137
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When will all the pc crap end.
Exactly!

At the risk of sounding redundant, mainly because I'm too lazy to read all the pages, I'll just quote Bruce Campbell, "This is my BOOM stick!". I'm sure the news media would love that. Lol
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Old December 1, 2012, 12:57 AM   #138
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English is both a precise and imprecise language, at the same time

And so are all the other languages I am familiar with. CONTEXT is vital.

Firearms are weapons, as a class, but are also only weapons when used as such.

Quote:
A given firearms actual use over it's individual life or at any specific moment is irrelevant.
This, I disagree with. Simply because it is too broad.

Is a butterknife a weapon? After all, its just a small sword....

It is a weapon, when used as such, and people have been killed with them, BUT, we don't generally consider it a weapon, except when used as such.

Guns, as a class, can be fairly called weapons, but to me, any individual gun is only a weapon when used that way.

And note the language used in the 2nd Amendment..not guns, not weapons, ARMS. This, of course, includes guns, but it also includes other things as well.

A bow and arrow is a weapon too, right? but today, we seldom think of it as such. Its not just about semantics, but about the perception specific words engender.

Personally, while, under certain circumstances I have no issue with the term "weapon", I dislike hearing people use the terms "platform" and "operator" and such, and the word "tactical" has been so misused as to almost lose all meaning.
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Old December 1, 2012, 09:31 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by SPEMack618
As previously stated, the word weapon is specifically prohibited on BSA ranges per NCS/NRA requirements. Woe be unto the poor instructor who calls a rifle a weapon in front of some of the mothers from some Atlanta troops. Bad day all around for everybody. The kid, the instuctor, the BSA, and the shooting community as a whole.
This brings up the point I made earlier. I simply can't imagine why you'd be using that word in the context of a typical conversation anyway.

I'm imagining teaching a group of Boy Scouts to shoot. Teaching the four rules, etc.

Where would the word "weapon" come into this?

I don't think I've ever met a person who refers to firearms as "weapons" in ordinary conversation. Not that they AREN'T weapons, it's just not a word we use.

No one says "Keep your weapon pointed down range.", "Put down your weapons." The word would be "muzzle" and "guns". I wouldn't say "Unload your weapons." It would be "guns".

If I'm in hunting camp and a guy walks in, don't say "Put your weapon in the rack, there.", I say "Set your gun down over there."

While in a technical sense, I believe that all guns are always weapons, I also feel that it's a word that simply isn't used in typical conversation. It fits right in with the Mall-Ninja feel of "Platform" and "Operator".

"Alright Operators! Pick up your weapons! We're going to discuss the tactical attachments available for this particular platform!" says the Mall-Ninja.
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Old December 1, 2012, 10:12 AM   #140
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It doesnt make any difference.

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Old December 1, 2012, 11:00 AM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Pfleuger
I'm imagining teaching a group of Boy Scouts to shoot. Teaching the four rules, etc.
The four rules, is a bad example given this post I made on page five. Jeff Cooper uses the term weapon all through his writings in direct reference to firearms. I hardly think he qualifies as a mall ninja.

Also this site is owned and hosted by SWAT Magazine (Special Weapons and Tactics), the term weapon and weapons are used throughout the articles in that publication. Rob Pincus for example, doesn't fit the description of a mall ninja either.

As others have stated many, many times in this thread alone, members of the military are specifically trained to call their issued rifles weapons. Many of the members of TFL are current active duty and ex-military, many are active LEOs, ex-LEOs, firearms instructors and combat shooters, that use the term weapon for firearms all the time. To suggest that doing so is a habit confined largely to 'mall ninjas' is at best incorrect and at worst mildly insulting.

Imagine if the people I referenced above referred to hunters and target shooters who'd never served in the military, never been police, or engaged in combat type shooting as, fudds who've never fired a weapon except on a skeet range, or at a squirrel, for using the term 'shooting iron', or 'muh gun', etc. They'd be quickly warned not to insult other members and rightly so.

Calling firearms weapons is not a technicality, or semantics, weapons are what they are. As already demonstrated earlier in this thread, arms are synonymous* with weapons. Whether certain individuals, like or use the word, has nothing to do with it. When one calls a pistol, rifle or shot gun a firearm, they are calling it a weapon. Remember also that firearms and ammunition are weapons.


* synonymous

1. : having the character of a synonym; also : alike in meaning or significance
2. : having the same connotations, implications, or reference
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Old December 1, 2012, 11:10 AM   #142
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There's also a context to my statements. Context is important.

Boy Scouts and deer hunters are neither soldiers nor SWAT officers.

I never said the word was "confined" to anything.

Being able to adapt one's word usage to fit the audience is an important part of effective communication. Soldiers use the word "weapon" in the appropriate context. Firearms instructors, teaching survival or defensive tactics use the word weapon in appropriate context.

Teaching Boy Scouts and soccer mom's is NOT the appropriate context. Talking to "regular" people in "average" conversation is not the appropriate context.

Is the word technically correct? Yes, it is. Is it the appropriate word for effective communication at those moments? No, it is not.

Firearms are weapons.

We don't have to "find" a different word. Ordinary people don't use that word in ordinary conversation.

It's not PC. It just doesn't fit the ordinary conversation.

You'll see from my very first post in this thread that I said we don't stop using the word "weapon". It's the context that matters.
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Old December 1, 2012, 11:40 AM   #143
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I don't disagree with you Brian. Context does matter. Using militaristic sounding lingo in the wrong setting is inappropriate. We're all aware of the wannabe type who over does their tacticool persona.

However, if someone asks someone else, especially a non-gun oriented person, "What type of weapon do you CCW?" and they answer "I don't carry a weapon, I carry a Glock 19." That would be a ridiculous, non-sensical answer. I realize you would never do that, but some of the posts in this thread make me wonder if others might.
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Old December 1, 2012, 11:46 AM   #144
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I agree.
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Old December 2, 2012, 12:54 AM   #145
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"Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud, and the rifle is the queen of personal weapons."

"The rifle is a weapon. Let there be no mistake about that. It is a tool of power, and thus dependent completely upon the moral stature of its user. It is equally useful in securing meat for the table, destroying group enemies on the battlefield, and resisting tyranny. In fact, it is the only means of resisting tyranny, since a citizenry armed with rifles simply cannot be tyrannized."

"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

—Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle
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Old December 2, 2012, 04:08 PM   #146
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Ask Kim Rhode (olympic shotgun shooter) if she refers to her shotgun as a weapon.

Ask Amanda Furrer (olympic 3 position rifle shooter) if she refers to her rifle as a weapon.

Just food for thought. By the by - my bro and I call everything a smokewagon

But - if and when I may need to be politically / technically correct, they are pistols, revolvers, rifles, and shotguns.
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Old December 2, 2012, 05:26 PM   #147
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Thank you for those quotes Nate
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Old December 2, 2012, 08:20 PM   #148
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It's argued that the sporting uses mean the boom thingee is not a weapon. However, even the specialized and techy events and guns are derivative of their primary lethal usage for people or animals.

Look at a lumberjack competition - certainly an axe is a deadly instrument or weapon and some were designed for such. However, one can use the axe as a tool easily. The competitions primarily practice such. Yeah, there are axe throwing as a side event.

The boom thingee was designed not to cut down trees but put holes in living creatures. The sporting events came from practice of such.

The Swiss shooting competitions were to practice using them as weapons and not as a method of making holes in Swiss cheese.
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Old December 2, 2012, 08:50 PM   #149
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Old December 2, 2012, 08:55 PM   #150
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Side Note:


I just finished a research report on Gun Control in America for my final in my College poli-sci class…………..and I used "weapon" quite a few times
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