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Old November 26, 2012, 10:51 PM   #1
Blackops_2
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Berger VLD hunting performance?

How's everyone's performance with these? Were shooting 105gr hunting VLDs @ 2700fps out of our youth model .243. Dad and I both have shot two does in the past couple of days. Found the one i shot the night i shot it and his that he shot the day before the same night. His was shot at 300yds mine at 255yds. Both perfect front shoulder shots. His had an exit hole of about two inches mine seemed to take a right turn and exit through the gut. Thing is they both ran 200+yds. I'm not doubting the bullet and a knock down shot isn't always guaranteed. But i love the bullet because of it's ability to retain energy downrange. Just wondering if anyone else has experienced the same? Or maybe i just have two rare cases here?

His also was knocked down and got back up.
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Old November 27, 2012, 09:36 AM   #2
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I've been wanting to try them. But I've had really good luck with swift a frames in my 257 weatherby.
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Old November 27, 2012, 12:17 PM   #3
Blackops_2
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Everyone else seems to be having great results I'm going to shoot some more and see what happens.
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Old November 27, 2012, 12:48 PM   #4
Brian Pfleuger
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It's hard for me to imagine how it would take until the next day to recover a deer that was shot through the chest, had a two inch exit wound and only went 200 yards.

In any case, there is no bullet that will guarantee a "Dead Right There" shot without the shooter making a hit to the Central Nervous System or brain.

Exit wounds and dead animals within a couple hundred yards is pretty much the definition of ideal.
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Old November 27, 2012, 03:15 PM   #5
Blackops_2
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I'm not sure why dad couldn't find his (getting old can't see as well) as i wasn't there. He said he couldn't find any blood. And we didn't, he walked up on her in the slew she ran in while looking for mine. He admitted he should've looked longer though. As i stated i realize there is no such thing as guaranteed "knock down shot". Just never had them run that far with a properly placed shot.
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Old November 27, 2012, 06:15 PM   #6
Saskhunter
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Quote:
Just never had them run that far with a properly placed shot.
Then I would guess you haven't shot very many. Brian P is absolutely correct when he said
Quote:
Exit wounds and dead animals within a couple hundred yards is pretty much the definition of ideal.
That's exactly what I hope for.

A question: if the results you are getting are not what you want, why do you keep using the same bullet. Tiny differences in Ballistic Coefficient are really not that important in a hunting bullet at ranges less than many hundreds of yards.
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Old November 27, 2012, 06:56 PM   #7
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That is strange. My 300 WSM killed my Antelope dead at 200 with a good exit wound. Entrance right behind shoulder.

The weakness with these should be weak jackets, poorly bonded to the core causing bullet framentation. I wonder what they look like on a 30 yard shot out of a gun shooting >3200fps??

I also kind of wonder if their weaker match jacket makes for good performance at like 800 yards out of something like a 308 with a 180 gr VLD...or if it just punches through...
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Old November 27, 2012, 07:12 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saskhunter
hen I would guess you haven't shot very many. Brian P is absolutely correct when he said

A question: if the results you are getting are not what you want, why do you keep using the same bullet. Tiny differences in Ballistic Coefficient are really not that important in a hunting bullet at ranges less than many hundreds of yards.
I've killed probably about 20 so yeah not that many, the only one i've ever had run that far though has been a gut shot back when i was little.

There aren't many 6mm hunting bullets with a G1 BC above .500 and G7 above .270. We've only shot two deer with them and i have 200 of them. They also shot well in the gun through a max load. 2700fps in an 18" .243 is great considering the overbore ratio and loss fps to the shorter the barrel. So it makes for a great 600yd gun, retaining 700fps over a 95gr partition for instance at the same speed at 600yds, which is the farthest i'd be shooting with the gun. I got the bullet wanting a compact short medium range gun for deer, hogs, coyotes, bobcats, etc. Something i could shoot accurately out to 600yds and throw in the truck. I'm not giving up on them, nor am I really displeased, i'm more or less curious as to others results with hunting VLDs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan
That is strange. My 300 WSM killed my Antelope dead at 200 with a good exit wound. Entrance right behind shoulder.

The weakness with these should be weak jackets, poorly bonded to the core causing bullet framentation. I wonder what they look like on a 30 yard shot out of a gun shooting >3200fps??

I also kind of wonder if their weaker match jacket makes for good performance at like 800 yards out of something like a 308 with a 180 gr VLD...or if it just punches through...
I was wondering the same. Going to shoot maybe a doe or two more behind the shoulder and see what happens. If that doesn't work i'll start shooting them in the neck like i usually do. Took two last year, one with my .308 shooting 175gr BT LRs and then another with a 77gr SMK from my AR neither one moved. That goes back to CNS as Brian said.
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Old November 27, 2012, 07:26 PM   #9
buck460XVR
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Sorry, never heard of a whitetail doe shot with a "perfect front shoulder shot" going 100 yards, much less 200. They just are not that hard to kill. A perfect front shoulder shot takes out the heart or lungs or both. A deer shot in either or both will not last long enough to go a quarter of that distance. Same deer shot with a bow would be down in 40 yards and a broadhead is not capable of the damage to tissue that an expanding bullet is.


Quote:
He said he couldn't find any blood. And we didn't

A exit wound of two inches of diameter thru the lungs would leave a blood trail a blind man could follow. If the bullet is not the problem, your shot placement is.
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Old November 27, 2012, 08:14 PM   #10
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I guess i should've taken pictures to support my statement but other than that you'll just have to take my word for it haha. I said the same as you i've never had one with a properly placed shot run over 100yds. These two did. Both had the "pinkish bubbly blood" all over their noses indicating lung hits. Hell dad's hit the ground when she was hit and then got back up and ran off. I agree we should've found blood i never saw any though i didn't really look that hard, i didn't see any around her though she was laying in a pool of blood. Maybe it's my tracking skills that are severely lacking which could very well be the case. We did find a lot for my deer after an hour of looking looked like someone took a paint brush to the ground near her. Couldn't find any on the treeline where she went in though.

Anyhow both deer are dead and stranger things have happened lol. I wanted to see others results regarding hunting VLDs not argue over what happened and why it happened or shouldn't have happened.
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Old November 27, 2012, 09:31 PM   #11
Savage99
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Blackops 2,

Your velocity is very low and your using a very small bullet for big game hunting!

Two manuals show 3100 fps as a maximum load for the 243 105 with 24" barrels.

Even then the distance your shooting big game at is too far for your gun.

Get closer to the game and get a bigger rifle.

The 243 is the legal minium in most places and I doubt they considered the hunter using a short barreled rifle with reduced loads.

Use enough gun!

It's not about the bullet at all. Bergers are fine for considered shots from big game rifles within their range.
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Old November 27, 2012, 09:48 PM   #12
Brian Pfleuger
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His weapon is perfectly fine for deer.
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Old November 28, 2012, 08:12 AM   #13
buck460XVR
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Quote:
I wanted to see others results regarding hunting VLDs not argue over what happened and why it happened or shouldn't have happened.
Not being argumentative. As you too have stated, lung shot deer do not go 200 yards. Maybe one in a lifetime due to some strange set of scenarios, but two in two days? I am not being critical of your tracking skills or your shooting ability. Just sayin' if you are hitting where you say you are, and are not getting terminal performance, then odds are your bullet may be the problem, at least in your gun with your loads at the ranges you are shooting. As hunters we are always trying to find the best gear we can to make our hunt enjoyable and to take our game as quickly and humanely as possible. When something works well, there's no need to change. When something proves on multiple occasions it does not work, we need to move on. Even if it works well for others.
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Old November 28, 2012, 08:48 AM   #14
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The 243 is the most perfect deer gun there is. Deer are very easy to knock down. If it goes 100yds, it was a bad shot. Period. It should go no more than a few yards, tops. If it does, you are NOT doing your job and owe it to the animal to figure out why.

We've been looking at Bergers for long range shots, but aint tried any yet. Mainly because we figured they were a hard bullet that wouldnt expand. Whenever you see them advertised, its on a 800yd+ shot and its in the high shoulder. I think the only way to break the shoulder like that, that far away is to have basically a FMJ. A FMJ is terrible for hunting unless you smack big heavy bones.

But, that is just my speculation. I've never bought any, so I dont know.
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Old November 28, 2012, 09:50 AM   #15
AllenJ
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Blackops you state both deer were shot through the shoulders? If this is the case you have the wrong bullet IMHO. Bergers are made to expand fast and fragment, they are not meant to break bones and provide pass through wounds. I would love to hear what happens if you double lung a deer without hitting the shoulder using Bergers since I just picked up a box of 95 grains VLD's for my 243
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Old November 28, 2012, 10:22 AM   #16
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Maybe i'm aiming for too much shoulder and not enough vitals then. I'll kill another one tuesday when i get back to keep the thread updated and see how it goes.
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Old November 28, 2012, 10:41 AM   #17
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reloader28
If it goes 100yds, it was a bad shot. Period. It should go no more than a few yards, tops. If it does, you are NOT doing your job and owe it to the animal to figure out why.
I agree with most of your statement but I have to strongly disagree with this part.

I've killed, seen killed and field-dressed a lot of deer. Many dozens. I have seen them killed with everything from archery equipment, to 243Win (and AI), 7mm-08, 30-06, black powder and smokeless muzzle-loaders, 20 and 12ga rifled and sabot slugs and more.

I once shot a doe with a 12ga rifled slug from a distance of about 15 feet. I was sitting on the ground. The slug hit both lungs and severed the aorta. The blood trail was 10 feet wide, at least, and several feet up the sides of trees as she ran. She went at least 150 yards.

I have seen their hearts be in pieces and they went 150 yards. I've seen their hearts not be touched and they drop on the shot.

I would say the average distance, on "perfect" shots, double-lung and/or heart shots is at least 50-75 yards. Rarely do they reach 150, but I've seen it more than once. Going "a few yards" is the exception, in my experience, rather than the rule.
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Old November 28, 2012, 11:32 AM   #18
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Every animal is different. I have been using the same load (150gr SGK @2900 f/sec) for years and have put that bullet through many deer. Some make it 15 feet. Some 100+ yards. One flinched, looked around all puzzled, so I shot him again. Same effect. Third time's the charm, right? He hopped forward and walked in a circle and laid down and died, with 3 holes clear through his chest. One button buck was running by at 10 yards or so .... I shot and he ran into a tree, fell on the ground on his side, legs furiously pumping as if he was still running upright.... I walked over to him and shot him in the neck with a revolver, which caused him to quit "running" ..... which proved to be really unnecessary, as I had apparently led him a bit far with the first shot- it had hit him under the near side eye and blown the far side of his head away, taking most of his brains with it ..... but his legs kept right on churning air for a good 15-20 seconds (and would have longer if the .357 bullet had not severed his spine). He was most certainly dead, but he was just not totally convinced of it just yet.......
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Old November 28, 2012, 03:47 PM   #19
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This 105 gr VLD was going a lot slower than 2700 fps at impact and worked just fine. Nothing wrong with a 243.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hY0w1c-gf18

Sometimes you run across animals that just don't want to die. Hunt long enough and you will run across one. I've put a 165 gr Nosler ballistic tip through both lungs of a mature whitetail that left a 2" exit hole. He still ran over 100 yards. Shot a 260 lb black bear that dropped in his tracks with the same bullet. Go figure.

I'd use that gun and load combination on any deer, at any range I am capable of shooting.
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Old November 28, 2012, 11:35 PM   #20
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Jmr just watched the video that was awesome.
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Old November 29, 2012, 07:30 PM   #21
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If you lung shoot a deer and give it some undisturbed time, it'll weaken and rest and usually pass on without moving too far. But..if you shoot and immediately make noise moving toward the deer you just shot, they'll run as long and as far as they can and die in midstride. Sometimes they can go a long way. Just give em 10 or 15 minutes before you start moving toward them. My grandfather said "take the time to smoke a cigarette before you go over there". I don't smoke, but I heard what he was saying.

And sometimes they just won't give it up. I shot a big buck right through the heart (determined by post-mortem exam) and that big rascal ran over 100 yards, crossing a very cold deep stream and into the biggest briar thicket that I know of. He was running fult tilt boogie till he died and he made a tremendous crash in the palmettos and briars.

So I'm saying, as others did, that there is no 'normal' when it comes to how far they go or if they go at all. The only normal in all of this is that if you shoot them through the lungs with a good bullet, they will die.
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Old November 29, 2012, 09:14 PM   #22
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I've shot and recovered 2 deer with "memorable" results. The first was a buck shot with my .50 cal muzzle loader. The shot was in the front of the chest and totally exploded the heart (verified during the butchering process). When the black powder smoke cleared, he was gone and I was worried but just after the powder smoke cleared, I heard him crash in the leaves about 30 yds from where he was standing when I shot.

The 2nd was a button buck at about 80 yds. I shot him using 230 gr Sierra game king boattail spitzers (federal premium loads). He flipped over backwards and didn't move for a couple minutes as I watched. He was shot almost broadside through both lungs. As I was gathering my stuff to leave the blind and go to the deer, he jumped up and started to run. Piled up stone dead about 20 yds from where he was shot.

The point is sometimes their adrenaline will propel them even though they are actually 'dead on their feet'.
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Old December 1, 2012, 04:22 AM   #23
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.243

Read and reread this thread...here goes.

To start, 600 yds is to far to be shooting at a big game animal, period, with near anything that is considered a sporting rifle. It can be done, folks do it, but it's a stunt. Wind alone will make good bullet placement difficult, much less range estimation, posture of the animal, etc, etc,

My understanding of the VLD huting bullet is that it enters, dumps and is not necessarily intended to exit. The reviews on the larger calibers and the VLD hunter are pretty postitive. But....... Using such a theory on a .243 may be flawed logic. The .243 may well enter and dump w/o the attending technology. You have actually used the slug and are getting exits. I dunno.

I hunt the .243 a bit, as does now my boy, and am not a basher. But I think the caliber is the ideal candidate for a premium bullet like the Patition, the A-frame, bonded technology, mono technology, etc, that is designed to expand, but hold together and penetrate. All those bullets, in the 100 gr range, will carry plenty of energy and shoot flat enough to bag deer to 300 yds + which is about as far as most will shoot game, especially whitetails.

The .243 is enough rifle, but proper bullet selection makes it even better.
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Old December 1, 2012, 05:53 AM   #24
Nathan
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It is hard to discuss performance based on how far they ran. It should be discussed related more on did it exit, how much penetration, and what happened when it hit bone. Sounds like one did what it should, but the other turned hitting bone. Only you looking at the animal knows if it turned too much.

Basically, they sound ok, but I would be more carefu of the deer angle to you.

My slug hit heart/ backside shoulder doe went 50 yards with a broke shoulder and a heart that looked like Swiss cheese.
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