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Old November 26, 2012, 10:24 PM   #26
Goet
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Your point of aim deals with different bore axes. If you stop glocking and shoot a different platform, it will go away in awhile. Same happened to me once I stopped playing with a G26. I suddenly became a much better shot with my Kimber.
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Old November 26, 2012, 10:53 PM   #27
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A 1911 with the A1 mainspring housing isn't that bad, just a little low. I can usually still see the very tip of the front sight with my standard grip. My old Springfield Armory Loaded model had this and it is the 1911 that I have the most experience shooting.

This particular one has the flat mainspring housing and it really makes it point WAY low for me. I have to make a very concerted effort to "unlock" my wrist and bend it back to get the sights lined up right.

My brother's wrist locks more vertical naturally, so he actually prefers the 1911 and Sig for quick reactive shooting. He usually shoots high with Glocks if he has been playing around with his other guns too much.
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Old November 26, 2012, 11:12 PM   #28
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A gun that is built to spec will have the link pin staked in place.

Built to spec, the pin is a press-fit. Staking is unnecessary, and is usually employed as a field expedient repair to prevent pin loss during field-stripping.
Sorry, yeah, Kuhnhausen recommends two different staking theories. I thought it was a government publication. The Ordnance Maintenance manual says only to gauge the link pin, but doesn't say what to do if it's undersized.
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Old November 26, 2012, 11:16 PM   #29
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Don't feel bad Crow Hunter, 1911s don't point naturally. A SAA, Luger, PM9 those are some examples of handguns that point like your finger.

With a 1911, try pointing the muzzle at the ground, straight down by your side, locking your elbow and wrist, then raising it up to eye level, you should be squared up pretty well. That will give you a good reference point.



I can't find a good illustration, but the eye level arm position above, is how you should end up. It was developed originally to get a 1911 into point shooting position.
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Old November 26, 2012, 11:18 PM   #30
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sounds like operator error
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Old November 26, 2012, 11:29 PM   #31
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A SAA, Luger, PM9 those are some examples of handguns that point like your finger.
The Luger and SAA are two of the worst-pointing guns. Don't know how they got their rep, beyond assuming that not everyone's hand works the same way.
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Old November 27, 2012, 01:35 AM   #32
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I think it's all in what we grew up shooting.

1911s point better for me than do Glocks, etc.

YMMV, and a lot of people prefer the Glock angle.
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Old November 27, 2012, 06:16 AM   #33
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Housing

The arched housing came along in order to correct the tendency to shoot low under stress, and it worked pretty well. For comfort and effectiveness at eye-level point-shooting and aimed fire, the flat housing gets the nod, even though I can do about as well with either. The flat housing does tend to distribute the "whack" of the slide impacting the frame more evenly over my hand...which is where 95% of the felt recoil comes from with a locked breech autopistol, and it doesn't leave the heel of my hand feeling bruised after a 500-round session.

After burning a conservatively estimated 3/4 million rounds through various 1911 pistols over the last half-century, that's hardly surprising. If I'd spent the same amount of time with about any platform you can name, I'd expect the results to be pretty much the same.

But...

I've found that in quick, close range waist to mid-body level point shooting, the arched housing holds an edge over the flat housing. Once I bring the gun to shoulder level, the line starts to blur.

It all boils down to what you get used to. Work with it enough, and you can learn to be effective with anything. Your hand and eye will adapt over time with repetition. Some designs are just more easy to come to terms with.
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Old November 27, 2012, 08:44 AM   #34
Crow Hunter
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Don't feel bad Crow Hunter, 1911s don't point naturally. A SAA, Luger, PM9 those are some examples of handguns that point like your finger.
I acutally grew up shooting single action revolvers but I have been shooting Glocks since 1998 or so.

I am still the most accurate (and have the most fun) shooting my Dad's old Single Six, but I only shoot it target shooting, not FAST drills with it.

I bought all my automatics at around the same time. I owned a S&W 909 (I think), Beretta 92, Taurus PT92, HK USP, Browning HP, SA 1911A1, Walther PPK, Walther P5, Sig P229, P220, P228, P225, P232, (I really wanted Sigs to work for me), and several Glocks.

Doing "shoot offs" over the years, I pared it down to what I shot the best and most repeatably in realistic defensive drills. (Not just target shooting)

That was actually what I was doing this time. I was doing a comparison between my G19 and a S&W M&P 9c. Actually, if I were starting completely over again, I would probably get the S&W as I actually shot it on par to possibly even a little better than I did the G19. Especially considering that is only the 3rd time I have even shot a M&P.

But I have 4 G19s, spare parts, 60+ magazines, .22 conversion and I am a Glock armorer. I didn't shoot the S&W M&P THAT much better.

I also didn't like the M&P .22 (Umarex). Which I also tried out in comparison to my Advantage Arms Conversion while I was at it. While it looks like a M&P and sort of feels like the M&P, the trigger & safety isn't similar. It does shoot very nicely suppressed though. Sounds like a pellet gun.

Which brings me to my final dislike of the 1911, which I forgot to add in my OP. You can't cycle the slide with the safety on. I had been working with the M&P 9c with thumb safety, for about 1.5 hours when my brother brought out the 1911. With the S&W, I kept the safety on until I brought the gun to eye level and in the same motion clicked the safety off when I got my flash sight picture and started pulling the trigger. Loading, magazine changes,etc. If the gun wasn't on the target, the safety was on.

When he handed the 1911 to me and I went to chamber a round, I couldn't get the slide to move for a second or 2 and I said WTH. Then I remembered I had to take the safety off.

It is an EXTREMELY accurate, beautiful looking, and somewhat hefty gun that I am sure lots of other people really like.

I don't.

Thanks for the advice on how to fix this one though.
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Old November 27, 2012, 09:21 AM   #35
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It is an EXTREMELY accurate, beautiful looking, and somewhat hefty gun that I am sure lots of other people really like

I think I am in the same boat. I really like 1911's and the two I have are sweet, but after shooting them side by side, I am tending toward others.

Kinda like the other day my brother and I were discussing his upcoming purchase of a new car - Audi vs BMW. I have driven both recently and actually liked the Audi. He liked the BMW. It is not that either car is bad. They are both excellent, but one will appeal a little more to a certain individual.

ps you have a lot of Sigs, but said they were not working for you? Just curios why not. I was looking to get a few and just wondering how they compared to you 1911.
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Old November 27, 2012, 09:33 AM   #36
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I have 1 Chip McCormack magazine that my slide doesn't lock back on, I marked it so I know which one it is as the follower sure looks identical to the rest.

If your brother is considering selling that 1911....I'm in
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Old November 27, 2012, 09:39 AM   #37
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ps you have a lot of Sigs, but said they were not working for you? Just curios why not. I was looking to get a few and just wondering how they compared to you 1911.
I USED to have a bunch of Sigs.

I sold/traded them off a long time ago.

They were exceptionally nice guns. Beautiful triggers, especially the P220, but I didn't shoot them as well as I did the Glock under time constraints non-target shooting conditions. I shot the Glocks faster and more accurately in defensive scenarios. (Drawing from concealment, getting off the X and firing rapid controlled shots on multiple targets)

Target shooting, I probably did a little better with them. Especially in single action.

I carried several of them for a while CCW and one of them rusted, I think it was the P228, but it might have been the P225) on the slide a little bit, which I didn't like.

These were all, with the exception of the P229, the stamped steel German guns.

My brother owns a newer P226 Blackwater Edition and it is a nice, if kind of large, heavy gun. (It has 20 rd magazines) It is very accurate but it shoots about 3 in below POA for me. It does keep me from looking at how I am shooting though, I can't see the bullet impacts until I drop the gun.

I still would like to try out a Sig P239. I don't mind the DA/SA transition that much, and I like the feel of the gun (never shot one though).

My advice would be to get one and try it out, unless you know someone who has one that you can run through its paces. That is really the only way to find out what works best for you. What works for me or others might not work for you. My brother much prefers the Sigs to Glocks. (I have been trying to get him to get a Sig P239 for me to "borrow".)

Having worked with both BMW and Audi engineers in the past, I would prefer the Audi.
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Old November 27, 2012, 09:46 AM   #38
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I just thought of something, it is a Springfield Armory. I wonder if that would be covered under their lifetime warranty policy?
Probably.
But be nice and get them to send you a pin.
Running up a hundred dollar Fedups bill to return the whole gun for replacement of a $.50 pin is just ridiculous.
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Old November 27, 2012, 01:13 PM   #39
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Probably.
But be nice and get them to send you a pin.
Running up a hundred dollar Fedups bill to return the whole gun for replacement of a $.50 pin is just ridiculous.
Free shipping both ways with SA's warranty.Unless you send it to custom shop for mods after the repair,then return shipping is on you.
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Old November 27, 2012, 01:26 PM   #40
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1911s point better for me than do Glocks, etc.
They both point the same for me. I can take my G19, 1911's and G21sf out in the same range session and do evenly with them all.

Guess everyone really is different.
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Old November 27, 2012, 01:34 PM   #41
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I am not a fan of the 1911. Never have been and probably never will. It may be the only pistol you buy new then have to send to an expert to make work, at a cost of $1,000.00 or more. Not comfortable to hold, not comfortable to shoot. And there are scores of other makes and models out there that do the job much better.
Except for being a WWII icon I can see no reason for it's popularity.
I would be happy to put a non-firing replica on my wall for it's historical significance.
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Old November 27, 2012, 01:43 PM   #42
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While I love the 1911 as an enthusiast and shoot it at the range very often. For duty and concealed carry, coupled in with home defense. I have to somewhat agree with



Quote:
It may be the only pistol you buy new then have to send to an expert to make work, at a cost of $1,000.00 or more
However, my SIG 1911 XO has been range flawless with 1,100 rounds.

Range flawless meaning, safe..cleaned and lubed, range, home, clean and lubed, safe..repeat.

It's tight slide to frame. So it hasn't been subjected to rain, dirt, lint, running and shooting...etc.


I'm not going to say the G word..but a few of those have. So has my P226.


I'm going to give my Colt 70 series a try when it's back from the plastic surgeons.


But yes.....now that statement about
Quote:
It may be the only pistol you buy new then have to send to an expert to make work, at a cost of $1,000.00 or more
While true to our eyes, others have completely "flawless" 1911's then again a good amount of those haven't subjected those 1911's to duty work.

I see it as everyone is an individual. I want to listen to everyone's opinion and draw my own conclusion on their experiences. Whether biased or not..We'll cross that bridge when we get there.
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Old November 27, 2012, 02:05 PM   #43
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They both point the same for me. I can take my G19, 1911's and G21sf out in the same range session and do evenly with them all.

Guess everyone really is different.
Do yours have a Flat or a Arched mainspring housings?

With the arched housing, I can barely see a difference myself(more like it just sits higher in my hand like a SIG) but with the flat housing, I can't even see the front sight without intentionally lifting the front of my hand to bring it front sight up.
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Old November 27, 2012, 02:07 PM   #44
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Constantine, I've owned Glocks, and I could shoot them very accurately. I respect Glocks.

But, if I want a pistol that I can shoot both accurately and (relatively) fast due to its pointing naturally for me, I do best with:

1911
CZ75 and variants
M9 and PX4 variants
M&P series
or
K frame revolvers

These all seem to point about the same for me, requiring less time to actually aim.

I've noted over time that I can shoot most guns about equally accurately, assuming a Weaver or Chapman stance and target pace. When shooting and moving, or drawing and shooting, I notice differences in time to first hit, or in time between hits.

Shooting around barriers, through window frames, etc (we have a VERY nice 3-bay indoor range for our IDPA club), I've noted which guns have the most noticeable muzzle rise for me, too - which can be a problem if (for example) one leans too far forward shooting through the window frame, and has the top of the slide actually strike the top part of the frame under recoil, interrupting cycle...

Add that to shooting one handed, or weak handed, and I find myself going more and more with all-metal guns. I don't mind the weight for carry, and I like the weight and balance for one-hand or weak-hand, on the move shooting.

My criteria and impressions of my different guns, in other words, changed when I went from mostly static, formal stance shooting to more improvisational stuff. So, now, I mostly shoot:

1911
CZ75 or P01
S&W M13

with a 442, PPS, or MK9 in a BUG role (I practice mostly lefty / weak with those, as I normally carry them LH IWB or pocket).

And I've sold quite a few of my polymers.
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Old November 27, 2012, 02:08 PM   #45
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Quote:
Do yours have a Flat or a Arched mainspring housings?

They're all flat mainsprings. I'm doing my Colt 70 Series now. Also adding on a flat mainspring.


The 1911 I shoot most in what I previously stated is the SIG 1911 XO..



Quote:
I can't even see the front sight without intentionally lifting the front of my hand to bring it front sight up.
I've never noticed that ever.. Next time I'm at the range I'm going to keep more mind on that. Don't know if I just adjust quickly. Or I don't even notice.


I can see why you asked about the mainspring. Similar little hump as the Glocks.
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Old November 27, 2012, 02:11 PM   #46
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Leake, I understand. To me it's all about practice. Using each gun while being very different in function, using them the same way you would the next. Agreed.


Also,
Quote:
And I've sold quite a few of my polymers.
I can say the same thing about .40S&W off topic now. Just reminded me. I've gotten rid of several .40's.

As for poly guns. I just like the weight and capacity.

Loved my SIG P226 though and SIG 1911 xo

Carry those still when I feel like switching it up.
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Old November 27, 2012, 02:13 PM   #47
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I never knew there was such a thing as "pointability" or a "natural pointing gun" until I joined an internet gun forum. Every gun I've ever used as performed up to, or more accurately DOWN to, my personal ineptness. I never felt that one required more or less work on my part than another. It never occurred to me that there was some sort of innate difference between them.
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Old November 27, 2012, 02:20 PM   #48
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Brian, next time you are someplace where you can draw and fire, point-fire, etc, put some up side by side.

If you are like me, you will notice that at certain (close) ranges, one gun will consistently hit between the 9s of the B27 without the gun ever coming up into flash picture, while another will be on target but wider.

Using flash picture, typically the gun that did well from point continues to outshoot the others.

If you don't have access to a "range" where you can do this kind of thing, the other thing I'll play with is (with an unloaded firearm, of course) choosing small objects in an enclosed area and drawing/pointing at them, then moving my head so I can see the sights, to figure out if the muzzle is actually pointing at the doorknob, or light bulb, etc, or if it is only in the vicinity.

(That last one works really well with lasers... point the gun first, then depress the laser, and see where it's aiming.)

I find the K-frame actually edges the others at the point drill, but performs about equally with the 1911 on the shooting drills. I attribute this to differences in the trigger. (My M13-3 has a very smooth DA trigger, but it's still not a 1911 trigger.)

I always found the trigger breaks on my G21s and G30 to be a bit distracting, and had to fight a tendency to string their shots out vertically. (Not badly strung out, just relative to my other guns.)
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Old November 27, 2012, 02:35 PM   #49
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Most likely, I'd find out that I shoot so poorly I can't tell the difference!
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Old November 27, 2012, 02:43 PM   #50
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Quote:
I never knew there was such a thing as "pointability" or a "natural pointing gun" until I joined an internet gun forum. Every gun I've ever used as performed up to, or more accurately DOWN to, my personal ineptness. I never felt that one required more or less work on my part than another. It never occurred to me that there was some sort of innate difference between them.
I don't really notice it if I am just target shooting.

But I notice it big time when I am doing close range quick shooting drills. With guns that "point well" for me, the front sight just "lands" right back on the target, I don't have to compensate or "find" the front sight after recoil. I find this also seems to "enhance" the recoil on guns that don't "point well" for me. They seem to jump around a little more and I "feel" like it is taking forever to get back on target and find that front sight.

Instead of BANG-BANG-BANG-BANG. It is BANG-frontsight-frontsight-THERE!- BANG -frontsight-frontsight....
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