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Old November 9, 2012, 06:37 PM   #1
Newton24b
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what makes a silencer

does it need to be attached to the gun to qualify as equiped, or doesit merely have to be attached to the gun in anyway, like mounted to the bayonet thats currently attached to the rifle?
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Old November 9, 2012, 07:09 PM   #2
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http://definitions.uslegal.com/f/firearm-silencer/

Quote:
The terms "firearm silencer" and "firearm muffler" mean any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, and any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication.[18 USCS ยง 921]
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Old November 9, 2012, 10:10 PM   #3
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It doesn't even have to be anywhere near a gun or even fit any known gun. If it exists and is intended to quiet the noise of a gun, or is a part of any device intended only to quiet the noise of a gun, it is a firearm silencer under the law. It doesn't even have to silence the gun; if it diminishes the noise in any way, it is a silencer.

Nor does it have to be a separate device. One way to make a silencer is to drill holes in the barrel to allow gradual gas release into some kind of sleeve or wrapping. In that case, the barrel is the silencer under the law.

Some legal "experts" on these sites contend that "silencers" do not really silence the noise of the gun and so are only "suppressors" and are therefore legal. I wouldn't like to try that argument in federal court, unless I hoped to make a getaway while everyone was laughing.

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Old November 9, 2012, 10:20 PM   #4
Newton24b
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i remember reading about "shooting" and "muffler" boxes that were just basically a cardboard box filled with and sound dampening material weather it be capet padding or dirty socks poeple were putting on shooting benches and then discharging a weapon with the muzzle inside in order to redirect and decrease the muzzle noise.

was that considered a silencer/supresser under that federal stipulation?
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Old November 9, 2012, 10:27 PM   #5
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It probably would be if someone wanted to press the issue, especially if the gun was fired that way in order to silence a gun being used to commit murder. But in such cases, the user would likely be indicted for murder or attempted murder, not possession of a silencer. As for arresting folks for having a bunch of dirty socks, I can only hope ATF doesn't decide to raid college dorms.

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Old November 9, 2012, 11:36 PM   #6
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Quote:
...diminishing the report of a portable firearm...
It is my understanding that this section is interpreted to mean that nonportable items (like shooting "tunnels" with sound-proofing or other large and nonportable sound-absorbing chambers that could be shot through to muffle the report) are not silencers.

Otherwise, an indoor shooting range would be a silencer because it reduces the report of firearms fired inside it as far as the people outside it are concerned.

So, while a silencer does not have to be attached to a firearm to legally be a silencer, it does have to be attachable to a portable firearm for it to legally be a silencer.

The linked thread contains a letter from the BATF that addresses this topic.

http://www.silencertalk.com/forum3/v...hp?f=2&t=72880
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Old November 23, 2012, 11:51 PM   #7
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Just for giggles.

If a suppressor is attached to a non-portable firearms is it still a suppressor, legally?

What if I had a semi-auto M249 SAW that was permanently bolted to a turret, that was also permanently bolted to the floor near a 3rd story window of my house?
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Old November 24, 2012, 12:31 AM   #8
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With the advent of the econo can, the ATF can now demand $200 in taxes every time you change your oil.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haiqFcIXTqs
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Old November 24, 2012, 10:36 AM   #9
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Quote:
...permanently bolted...
I know your comment was mostly for humorous impact, but I don't believe bolts/screws/threads constitute permanent attachment as far as the BATF is concerned.
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Old November 24, 2012, 11:04 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klyph3
With the advent of the econo can, the ATF can now demand $200 in taxes every time you change your oil.
Although I'm sure you were jesting, the oil filter isn't the registered component, the adapter is the registered NFA component. No adapter, no NFA involvement.
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Old November 24, 2012, 01:13 PM   #11
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Although I'm sure you were jesting, the oil filter isn't the registered component
Although I was jesting, the atf has ruled that any component of a silencer is also a silencer itself, and thus an NFA "firearm". According to the letter of the law, they CAN charge you with illegal possession of an NFA item for owning an oil filter.
"Oh but they'd never do that, that's ridiculous!"
Yeah, ok buddy, keep those blinders on tight.
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Old November 24, 2012, 02:22 PM   #12
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An oil filter is intended for filtering oil, not for silencing a frearm, so it is not a silencer under the law. But if I modify one or attach one to a firearm with the intent to silence the firearm, then that oil filter becomes a silencer by MY intention, not the original manufacturer's intention.

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Old November 24, 2012, 05:40 PM   #13
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Do you have a firearm with a threaded barrel, and an oil filter?
Constructive intent. Thats all they need to charge you, and the court battle will destroy your life whether you win or lose. They've done it before, they'll do it again, and it only gets worse.
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Old November 24, 2012, 06:24 PM   #14
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Do threaded barrels and oil filters generally have the same thread pitch or does an adapter (the registered NFA item) have to be used as in the video you linked? If the adapter is, in and of itself, the NFA item, then the filter, by definition, isn't the silencer or a component thereof.
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Old November 24, 2012, 10:09 PM   #15
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Quote:
According to the letter of the law, they CAN charge you with illegal possession of an NFA item for owning an oil filter.
"Oh but they'd never do that, that's ridiculous!"
It is ridiculous. UNLESS you happen to have either of the following:

1. An adapter that fits the oil filter threads on one end and firearm barrel threads on the other end.

2. A firearm with a barrel that has been specially modified with threads that match oil filter threads.
Quote:
Do you have a firearm with a threaded barrel, and an oil filter?
Don H is correct.

Oil filter threads don't match any of the standard threads used on firearm barrels. You would have to possess an adapter or have had one of your firearm barrels threaded with non-standard threads that match an oil filter before the ATF could gain any traction for a prosecution.
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Old November 25, 2012, 07:35 PM   #16
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Quote:
I know your comment was mostly for humorous impact, but I don't believe bolts/screws/threads constitute permanent attachment as far as the BATF is concerned.
Yes, it was to be humorous. However, if the firearm was bolted, then the bolts welded so they cannot be removed, then it would be permanent. Sames goes for the turret to the floor. Or in any means to make it permanent.
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Old November 25, 2012, 08:09 PM   #17
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That's my understanding as well. It takes welding, or a similar process to make something permanently attached.
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Old November 25, 2012, 08:20 PM   #18
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So if you don't have the adapter, the worst they can do is thousands and thousands of dollars in legal fees. But what if you have a tap and die set and a drill press? At what point are you guilty of conspiracy to intend to evade a tax on a constitutional right?
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Old November 25, 2012, 09:09 PM   #19
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Not to start a flame, but unlike most people who " quote " the constitution, I have actually read it, and unless I missed it some where, nowhere does it say anything about the right to own silencers. Klyph3 Where in the constitution is that part so I can refresh my memory
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Old November 25, 2012, 11:24 PM   #20
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Quote:
So if you don't have the adapter, the worst they can do is thousands and thousands of dollars in legal fees.
If you don't have an adapter, the worst they can do is nothing. Trying to prosecute someone for owning an oil filter (or lawnmower muffler or 2 liter bottle, or any other commonly availabe non-firearm-related item that could be adapted to be a silencer) in the absence of any supporting evidence that there was intent to use it as a silencer is an absolute non-starter.

Do you have some evidence of a BATF prosecution or attempted prosecution of a person for owning an item that could be adapted for use as a silencer in a situation where there was no supporting evidence of intent.

What you're trying to claim is equivalent to saying that anyone with a 2 liter bottle and duct tape is liable to prosecution. I'm not a BATF fan, but there are practical limits to what they can get away with, and the kind of thing you're trying to pass off as fact is getting close to tinfoil hattery.
Quote:
At what point are you guilty of conspiracy to intend to evade a tax...?
Same as always. At the point that there's sufficient evidence to actually show intent and capability beyond a reasonable doubt. You're liable to be prosecuted before that threshold is reached, of course, but even then there has to be sufficient evidence to at least strongly suggest that you're trying to or clearly intend to break the law.

Now, there are things that could get you some extra attention. If you own oil filters and guns, it would be stupid if the oil filters were not ones that fit your vehicles. It would be stupid to store them in your range bag instead of with the oil and your car tools in the garage. It would be stupid to have an adapter that adapts gun barrel threads to oil filter threads. Basically don't be stupid.
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Old November 26, 2012, 02:55 AM   #21
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Quote:
Not to start a flame, but unlike most people who " quote " the constitution, I have actually read it, and unless I missed it some where, nowhere does it say anything about the right to own silencers. Klyph3 Where in the constitution is that part so I can refresh my memory
Under the law, silencers themselves are firearms.

I guess I'm a little put off by laws that can prosecute you based on your perceived intent. No one knows my intent but myself, maybe I want to go shooting and change my oil, or change the oil of a friends car and show him my guns. The fact that we have to worry about felony jail time for such benign behavior is outrageous. Moreso when you realize there is no physical crime against any person, they're accusing you of intent to make your firearm slightly less hazardous without paying the tax for improving the safety of said firearm. It's madness.
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Old November 27, 2012, 12:53 AM   #22
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The fact that we have to worry about felony jail time for such benign behavior is outrageous.
It would be outrageous if you really had to worry about it.

You don't, unless you really are trying to use them as silencers as evidenced by the fact that you have the appropriate thread adapter or have a firearm modified to accept an oil filter.

Are you even reading the responses on this thread? It's like you're under the impression that if you say something over and over it's going to become true after awhile.

You do NOT need to worry about owning oil filters and firearms. You DO need to worry about it if you are taking steps to use oil filters as silencers and haven't followed the established procedures for doing so legally.
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Old November 27, 2012, 09:39 AM   #23
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First time I heard of a oil filter being used as a silencer was in an old movie.
No threading was required, the bad guy just shoved the muzzle of a small caliber revolver into the hole so it wedged in place.

I'd never thought this would work till I saw a video demonstration of the thread adapter not long ago.

A small caliber revolver can be muffled quite effectively by a throw pillow, or practically anything thick and soft that you can wrap around the frame and muzzle.
The item should be damp or it can smolder and catch fire later on.

In England horse breeders can buy silenced small bore shotguns. The barrel has ports drilled for most of its length and theres a barrel jacket. Apparently this work well for killing vermin without spooking horses.
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Old November 27, 2012, 10:22 AM   #24
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JohnKSa: I'm afraid you do have to worry about it, whether you own an actual firearm or not.

The short version is the BATF gets to determine what constitutes a silencer, and the way the way it's written now just about anything can be crammed into that category.

I have first hand experience with this and while it is questionable that I would have suffered any legal consequence, the business owner I was working with most certainly could have.

He wasn't in the gun business either, unless you consider paintball markers "guns". We manufactured aftermarket barrels for various paintball markers and some versions had what from a visual standpoint looked very muck like a silencer.

Removed from the barrel it was a piece of PVC pipe, two rubber o-rings, two delrin disks that pressed around the barrel, and a piece of furnace filter foam. Keep in mind the barrel itself was drilled full of holes and was itself an integral part of this system and when everything else was removed they were just a handful of plastic and rubber. The purpose of this stuff was to absorb the CO2 cloud when CO2 was the dominant power source before compressed air took off.

The fact that this stuff was just so much junk unless pressed on a barrel that was about .800 in diameter and punched full of holes made no difference to the two BATF agents that showed up, in person, to investigate. After all, you could just hack saw the barrel, slip it over a .22, and duct tape it in place. It only has to work once, and it only has to be 1db, and you've got yourself a silencer.

When the official paperwork came in it was cease and desist immediately. Failure to comply meant probable jail time and severe fines.

This isn't rumor or I had a friend that knew some guys brother. I was there. I even have a copy of the ruling floating around somewhere within all my household junk, though I doubt I could find it on purpose.

Bottom line is THEY get decide, not you or me, and the way it's written they can squeeze almost anything into that category if they feel they need to.

You don't have to take my word. Do a google search on BOA Barrels, The Concealer, and the BATF. I'm sure the story will pop up somewhere.
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Old November 27, 2012, 01:54 PM   #25
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This whole discussion perfectly demonstrates how ridiculous the suppressor rules are, making about as much sense as a trailer hitch tax for a device that allows your car to function as a truck. Oil filter adapters are made/sold/owned legally as solvent traps without a tax stamp and work well for their intended purpose.
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