The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Dave McCracken Memorial Shotgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 6, 2014, 08:29 AM   #1
seeker_two
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 31, 2002
Location: Deep in the Heart of the Lone Star State (TX)
Posts: 1,730
Why no .410/.45Colt Pump Shotguns?

I'm sitting here with my Mossberg 500 .410, and I'm just really impressed at how svelte and ergonomic this gun is. I really like shouldering and shooting this gun. The only thing that could make it better would be if it could also shoot a better slug round than the .410 offering....something like the .45Colt.

(Before anyone says it, I am NOT going to load my Mossberg with Colts. I know it's limitations)

My question is....what would it take design-wise for Mossberg to offer the 500 in .410/.45Colt? Also, would such a model be a good seller in today's market?

Thanks in advance for the input.
seeker_two is offline  
Old September 6, 2014, 09:32 AM   #2
Chuck Dye
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 28, 2002
Location: Oregon-The wet side.
Posts: 878
Run a search on Aguila Minishell Ammo and making it run in pumps. It seems even the Winchester 1300 touted in that Midway blurb is an iffy proposition. I know that my Ithaca 37 became a very clumsy single shot when I tried them. I suspect that the length difference between .410 and .45 Colt would give similar troubles.

(Aguila's web site once touted a Poseidon Arms pump dedicated to the Minishell but it never reached the market. An intriguing idea for home defense, I might well have bought one.)
__________________
Gee, I'd love to see your data!
Chuck Dye is offline  
Old September 6, 2014, 09:44 AM   #3
Virginian-in-LA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 11, 2012
Location: Evangeline, LA
Posts: 824
I think your last question is really the answer to your first. No, it would not be a good seller. Not enough people like the .410 to make it a big seller, especially in a low cost pump gun. I think Remington is the only one who has made a semi, and they did it to cover Skeet. And shotgun only deer areas wouldn't permit the .45 Colt. I do not know what they would have to do to the barrel and/or chamber area and the lock up mechanism to handle .45 Colt pressures, but I suspect they would have to do something. And lastly, unless one handloaded or bought premium loads, the selection of factory loadings is limited and aimed at the handgun - mostly Cowboy - market. And they would probably figure people would handload up to the "Ruger" pressure range loadings and that would require a bit of overdesign. A buddy does have a Rossi lever action in .454 Casull and it is pretty useful. Because of the shorter overall length, lever actions are much handier with the shorter cartriges. Pump rifles have found limited favor in stronger loadings than .22. I think the Remington 7600 is the only one that has been around for a long time, and I suspect the reason it is feasible is because it shares a lot of the design and components with the 7400 semi.
I admit I have an anti .410 bias. I have never owned one, ever. I have shot a plenty. If I wasn't opposed to government involvement in almost anything, I would not let anyone shoot at game with one until they first passed a test with it. I have seen crack shots use them on quail and dove, and they knew their effective range and did fine, but too many people still wound too much game even with a 12 gauge. When one of them uses a .410 it's a travesty.
__________________
What could have happened... did.

I do not trust Remington's dating service accuracy. If they were Match.com, you could end up with Nancy Pelosi.
Virginian-in-LA is offline  
Old September 6, 2014, 11:26 AM   #4
big al hunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 12, 2011
Location: Washington state
Posts: 953
As was mentioned earlier the action would need to be changed. But I think the biggest limitation would be the barrel. In order to make it work for both, one or the other load would suffer in performance.

If you chamber to suit the .45, the barrel would be rifled. That would ruin the pattern for the .410, making it even less effective and shorter range.

If you chamber to suit the .410 it would be a smooth bore, but larger in diameter. While overbore is not necessarily a bad thing for shotguns, no rifling would not do the .45 colt loads any favors in the accuracy department.

I think it would be more useful to keep the 2 separate.
__________________
You can't fix stupid....however ignorance can be cured through education!
big al hunter is offline  
Old September 6, 2014, 12:47 PM   #5
seeker_two
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 31, 2002
Location: Deep in the Heart of the Lone Star State (TX)
Posts: 1,730
Chuck: Good point. IIRC, the Mossbergs could run the mini-shells with no modification. I wonder if the same would apply to the .410 frame....

VA/LA: I understand your concerns @ hunting with the .410, but the same could be said about any caliber or gauge. It falls to the responsible Hunter to know his weapon's limitations....and his own.

Big Al: Good point. Mossberg barrels are easy to swap, though. Having a rifled barrel for .45Colt & smoothbore barrels for the .410 make more sense.

Keep 'em coming, folks....
seeker_two is offline  
Old September 6, 2014, 01:51 PM   #6
MarkCO
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 21, 1998
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 781
Get a .45 Colt lever gun and load up some birdshot rounds for it.
__________________
Good Shooting, MarkCO
www.CarbonArms.us
MarkCO is offline  
Old September 6, 2014, 02:24 PM   #7
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 11,820
Its a fair question, but it overlooks one huge point, one that is commonly overlooked.

And that is that ALL the .45/.410 combo guns are NOT .410s that can fire .45 Colt, they are .45 Colts that can also fire .410 shells.

now, the .45 Colt, in its original state was a black powder round, and the low pressures of black powder can be contained in shotguns as well. SO that looks like it would work ok. BUT, there are other considerations, one of which is that since the advent of "Ruger Only" level loads, the odds that someone would stick a case loaded well above the safe working limits for many shotgun designs has increased a lot.

Another factor, already mentioned is that the gun has to be a .45 caliber bore. .45/.410 handguns are rifled, to comply with Federal law (smoothbore handguns are NFA regulated items). One could make a .45 caliber smooth bore pump gun, in .45 Colt/.410 but there's no point to it. Smoothbore means little, if any accuracy from .45 Colt ammo, and the oversize bore for the .410 degrades its already limited performance to a degree. So, you lose usefulness of the .45 Colt, and gain nothing (if not lose a bit) of performance of the .410.

you would likely be better off with a .410 gun and shoot .410 slugs when a solid bullet is desired.

On top of all that is the difficulty of making a feeding mechanism that will reliably handle shells of such drastically different lengths.

So, you proposed gun would have to be built more heavily than a .410 shotgun, (heavier gun, less appealing to the market), if rifled, would have absolutely miserable performance from the .410 round, if smooth bore you get miserable performance from the .45 Colt.

Also, if you do get past the issues of feeding the different lengths of rounds, the gun still has to have an action long enough to handle the rounds, which means it has to be longer than a .45 Colt only rifle.

Almost literally, you get the worst of all things, and the benefits of neither round. The only .45Colt/.410 long gun I know of is essentially, an oversized revover action with a long barrel, buttstock, and a gas shield to help protect the forward hand from cylinder gap flash. At least, being a revolver, they don't have feeding issues.

Guns like this are seen and sold, more as novelties, examples of what can be done, more than what should be done. Yes, they are functional firearms, and yes, they do work, but they are not as good at either job as a purpose built .45 or .410.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old September 6, 2014, 03:30 PM   #8
hodaka
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 23, 2006
Location: South Texas
Posts: 1,854
Tarus Thunderbolt

I bought one many years ago. I have not seen them in a while. Holds about 15 .45 Colt slugs and cycles fast, and is fairly accurate. I've made up shotshells but have been disappointed with the donut pattern.
hodaka is offline  
Old September 9, 2014, 08:37 AM   #9
Bennyfatsack
Member
 
Join Date: August 11, 2014
Location: NSW Australia
Posts: 77
Have a look at rossi circuit judge .410 .45 colt revolver style rifle, they do both straight revolver or short stroke lever action, I'm limited to lever action in aus trying to source one at moment.
__________________
Quote..."They say the trouble with the Irish is that they rely too much on dreams and not enough on gunpowder. Whereas the English were shy on dreams, as usual, but had plenty of the other. Now we had both."
...Ned Kelly...
Bennyfatsack is offline  
Old September 9, 2014, 11:07 AM   #10
Gunfixr
Member
 
Join Date: June 10, 2007
Location: East Coast, USA
Posts: 80
As 44amp said, the judge is a. 45 Colt that also shoots. 410s. Unlike most shotgun calibers, which are gauges,. 410 is a bore size. It should be readily apparent what will happen when a. 454 bullet tries to go down a. 410 bore, not even counting a choke at the end.
Just as clearly seen is that a. 410 shot column going down a. 454 bore is not going to perform all that well. It gets away with this because it's a handgun, ranges are short.
Then, there is feeding two rounds that are drastically different in length. Mossberg uses an open bottom lifter that won't work with this. That's why the bigger guns won't run the Minishells. I have modified Mossberg 500s to run them, the lifter has to be modified.
The judge has the rifled bore and takes. 45 Colts only because we have atf here. In Brazil, the judge is a. 410 revolver, smooth bore, and not taking the Colt round.
Gunfixr is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:38 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.08103 seconds with 9 queries