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Old November 23, 2012, 02:19 PM   #1
Ultra12
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Muzzleloading help

Now that I have the basic collection (hunting rifle in 3006, Mosin nagant for plunking, 4570 lever action for big game, a shotgun for upland and a 223 for varmint ) I decided next should be a muzzleloader. It will give me few extra weeks of hunting and .50 cal is just bad ass. However I know little to nothing about them. I have an extra scope Nikon monarch that will go on it. I see big chain stores sell muzzleloaders for few hundred bucks but I realized long ago u get what you pay for. I buy things with mind set that they will never be sold and will be left to my kids and grand kids. What better place to ask advice than here on a forum. I wouldn't mind a used muzzleloader (older stuff usually are better quality). Thank you in advance.
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Old November 23, 2012, 02:22 PM   #2
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Quote:
and .50 cal is just bad ass.
.50 cal is a wuss. .58 is bad ass.
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Old November 23, 2012, 02:42 PM   #3
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Your .50 will give good performance.

Quote:
.50 cal is a wuss. .58 is bad ass.
Well, I suppose you could say that the .50 may not be a bad ass but it will get the job done. Most deer are taken with .50 then any other caliber but in fairness, that is primarily due to there being more .50's than other hunting calibers. ...

Then again, by this logic, a .58 should be considered a wuss compared to a .69 or .75 .....

Most if not all of the M/L's in the typical chain stores, are of the closed breech types, break or box actions and require 209 primers. Looks like this is the direction you are leaning toward. All come with basic instructions and there are literally unlimited sources of information our there. One that comes to mind, is books by Sam Fadala. I hope you catch the bug and eventually get into the Traditionals. .....

Be Safe !!!
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Old November 23, 2012, 03:06 PM   #4
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You'd think you'd know I was being sarcastic Pahoo.
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Old November 23, 2012, 03:22 PM   #5
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I know ???

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You'd think you'd know I was being sarcastic Pahoo.
Yes, I know and we should stay on point, with the OP. ....

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Old November 23, 2012, 03:29 PM   #6
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What do you mean by Traditional?
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Old November 23, 2012, 03:31 PM   #7
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Ooooh boy(as we sit rubbing our hands)....

...Have you researched M/L'ers enough to know whether you want an inline or sidelock?

Both are M/L'ers...but different animals.
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Old November 23, 2012, 03:36 PM   #8
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Those that are "In the Spriit"

Quote:
What do you mean by Traditional?
Plays right into the Hawgs, hand and so glad you asked .....

http://blackpowdertimes.com/index.php

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Old November 23, 2012, 05:48 PM   #9
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If you are wanting an inline muzzleloader (also known as modern) you can't go wrong with a break action. I use a CVA Accura but there are also other CVA's (optima, wolf etc) and Thompson Center (Encor, Impact etc.). However, if you live in an open breach state, you need to have something with the primer exposed but a lot of these can still use magnum charges. If you are wanting percussion cap or flintlock, there is a lot of knowledge on this forum. Please do your research and don't skimp on cleaning after shooting, your smokepole with love you for it.
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Old November 23, 2012, 07:16 PM   #10
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Quote:
What do you mean by Traditional?
This here is a "traditional" muzzleloading pistol.



And, this pistol is not. You get the idea.



Many traditional ml rifles have a slow rifling twist, one turn in 66 inches or so, to shoot traditional round balls wrapped in a cloth patch. Go to U-tube and search patched roundball shooting and you'll probably find a demo video.
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Old November 23, 2012, 08:05 PM   #11
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Used Lyman Great Plains rifle. They close enough and affordable.
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Old November 23, 2012, 09:01 PM   #12
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Yeah the GPR is a good traditional rifle without breaking the bank.
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Old November 23, 2012, 09:09 PM   #13
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The Lyman Great Plains would be an excellent choice of traditional as well as a Thompson Center Hawkins.
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Old November 23, 2012, 09:43 PM   #14
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Another group of traditional muzzleloaders is the historical military muskets.
A 500 grain Minie style bullet shot from a .58 caliber '55 Springfield or a '53 Enfield should kill any critter in North America.
Lots of companies make repros of these guns.

You just won't find them at Wally World or Cabelas.
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Old November 23, 2012, 09:53 PM   #15
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Agree that the Civil War rifle musket should be considered. While the user should cast his/her own minie balls (because they're expensive), the minie gun can reach out to 500 yards with accuracy.
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Old November 23, 2012, 10:15 PM   #16
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Some guns like the TC Hawken are a traditional style gun but not a reproduction of an actual historic rifle. The Lyman GPR is more historically correct as a Hawken style rifle. It becomes even more historically correct if you replace that big square blade front sight with a smaller, lower, and more rounded blade and put a simple non-adjustable rear sight on the back.

There are also traditional styled rifles with fast twist rifling suitable for modern plastic sabots and jacketed bullets. I.E. the Great Plains Hunter.

Last edited by B.L.E.; November 23, 2012 at 10:28 PM.
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Old November 24, 2012, 08:28 AM   #17
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I'll encourage you the way of the traditional. However, in Kansas, your best chance at a Western kansas Mulie (drawing a tag), is to do muzzleloader. With that in mind, there is only one answer. The Savage MLII has the ability to reach out to 300 yards with SMOKELESS loads. That's right, smokeless. Doesn't even need cleaning after you've shot. Sometimes, I've found its just a little too convenient.




Both these were shot right at the 200 yard mark. Not that I couldn't have done this with my more traditional fare, but it would have been much harder.
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Old November 24, 2012, 09:56 AM   #18
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The traditional patched round ball propelled by real black powder definitely has its limits, just like when you hunt with a bow and arrow, you gotta know and deal with the limits of your equipment.

Traditional muzzleloaders was all that there was before all the "muzzleloading only" seasons became popular.
The people who shot muzzleloaders were into muzzleloading first and chose to hunt with the limitations of a traditional muzzleloader during open season.
Then all the states started with the "muzzleloading only" seasons and suddenly, people bought muzzleloaders as a means to an end and the inlines shooting saboted jacketed bullets and fake gunpowder completely took over.

Go back in time to the 1970s and '80s, you entered the muzzleloading section of a large gun retailer and you saw mostly replicas of Kentucky longrifles, Missouri plains rifles, underhammers, many of them sold as kits.

Not that I begrudge the ml only seasons. The interest in traditional muzzleloaders would probably have waned anyway without Fess Parker playing Daniel Boone on the TV anymore.
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Old November 24, 2012, 08:58 PM   #19
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muzzleloader newbie which one?

I skimmed through most of everybodies replies but I think more info from you would be helpful.
What type of game so you expect to hunt with it and what type of terrain?
Then do you want to stay with the traditional design or a sidelock percussion
or do you want the modern inline using the 209 shotgun shell primers?
Thompson and CVA and numerous others all make excellent quality inlines.
Lyman and I think Thompson still make quality traditional style.
Like the movie Jeremiah Johnson with Robert Redford.
I have been fun shooting and hunting shooting Black Powder regularly since the late 1970's.
I still have my "modern" guns, but rarely shoot them. I get a bigger thril with Black Powder, knowing I only got one shot, I must get closer, and be more accurate in my shot placement.
Most would agree the .50 cal is a good all around black powder.
For a little more oomph consider the .54 cal.
The long barrel 30 to 34 inch on average will produce slightly more velocity and accuracy.
pm me or email me
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Old November 24, 2012, 09:34 PM   #20
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Re: Muzzleloading help

If shooting lead bullets and using iron sights, for the money I doubt you could go wrong with the Deerstalker or Great Plains rifle from Lyman, depending on whether you want to shoot (respectively) Maxi- or Minie-style bullets. Being right-handed but left-eyed, I shoot long guns left-handed. Years ago I managed to find two left-hand replica Hawkens, manufactured by Investarm in Italy, a 58 cal. from Cabela's and a 54 cal. Great Plains from Lyman. The 54 cal. had to be sporterized by squaring off the rear stock and installing a recoil pad; the 58 cal. came already so sporterized, as does the Deerstalker. (This alteration works with heavy bullets and safe maximum powder charges, as a curved crescent metal buttplate can be murder on rotator cuffs in heavy recoil.)

On both rifles I installed studs for sling swivels and Lyman 66 aperture rear and so-called fiber-optic front sights, and replaced the wood ramrods with synthetic "unbreakable" ones, using a metal range ramrod when sighting in at the range. Shooting with set triggers Hornady Great Plains hollow-base/hollow-point swaged bullets (425 gr. in 54, 525 gr. in 58) with charges of Triple Seven powder 10 gr. (by volume) below maximum loads specified by the manufacturer, off a benchrest the rifles give one-hole groups on paper targets at 50 yards, about the farthest shot I can expect in swamps where I hunt. I take the 54 for deer-only hunts, and the 58 if I have permits for both deer and hog. My bullet casting for rifles is so far pretty much limited to 45-70, and I wonder whether pure lead bullets cast from the Minie bullet moulds I have would equal the results I get from the Hornady bullets. Also, Triple Seven cleans up just fine with Simple Green and boiling water. I'd never go back to FFg blackpowder unless nothing else was obtainable.

Aperture sights on muzzleloaders are nothing new. The German Museum for Hunting and Fishing in Munich has on display 18th century flintlock hunting rilfes so equipped.
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