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Old November 22, 2012, 01:54 PM   #26
jhenry
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I would agree that a standard wadcutter out of an abbreviated barrel is a poor choice, but stating that it will"only" make the person angry is a bit of hyperbole.
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Old November 22, 2012, 02:02 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skadoosh
Buffalo Bore standard pressure 158gr LSWCHP is good medicine for a snubby. And I have no problems loading quickly with these. I wont carry anything else.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=110
I carry the same load and it is AWESOME!
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Old November 24, 2012, 03:32 AM   #28
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https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=111
Quote:
In my experience ( 25 years as a street cop) 38 wadcutters suck worse than anything else for personal protection. They are designed for low recoil target shooting. If you were to say increase the velocity to about 1000 fps, then you would have something.
BuffaloBore does a good job getting a 150gr WC going 850 FPSish from a 2" vented barrel at standard 38spl pressure. I can do the same at +P, shot placement will decide if the load is adequate.
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Old November 24, 2012, 02:26 PM   #29
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I've used Nyclads in my M&P 360 for when the wife might use it, otherwise I've heard that Hornady is coming out with a new "non +p" load (if you don't mind the pink box and pink polymer insert...) but it's only 90 grain I think (rather light I think)

http://www.hornady.com/store/38-Spec...-Defense-lite/
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Old November 24, 2012, 04:54 PM   #30
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Quote:
I would agree that a standard wadcutter out of an abbreviated barrel is a poor choice, but stating that it will"only" make the person angry is a bit of hyperbole.
Based on what experience? I have stated mine.
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Old November 24, 2012, 07:51 PM   #31
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I can do the same at +P, shot placement will decide if the load is adequate.
Shot placement is largely luck. In a SD situation, you will most likely be grappling, wounded or diving to cover to keep from being wounded. You will probably not be using a proper stance. If you feel good with what many "experts" consider to be the minimum have fun. I like to have a margin for error.
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Old November 25, 2012, 01:20 AM   #32
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Lethalality, stopping power and other bs

I am an old fart who has wagged a 22 a lot of miles. Every living thing I ever shot with a 22 , from hogs to grasshoppers has either dropped or ran off which is my goal in self defence. In combat people have had their foot blown off and kept running (check P.O.Ackley's book). When a person is drugged or pumped up, they may take a lot of stopping. The phrase " that little gun will only make them mad", loses the speaker a lot of creditalby with me but you are intitled to your opinion. My little friend is a 357.
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Old November 25, 2012, 02:37 AM   #33
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As already mentioned, Buffalo Bore sells standard pressure ammo specifically designed for short-barreled guns. I have some of this loaded in an older Model 49: https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=110

They also have a standard pressure load using the Barnes DPX bullet: https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=294

SGAmmo.com still has some of the Speer 125gr Gold Dots in standard pressure .38spl:

http://www.sgammo.com/product/speer/...ure-ammo-53722
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Old November 25, 2012, 11:05 AM   #34
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Quote:
The phrase " that little gun will only make them mad", loses the speaker a lot of creditalby with me but you are intitled to your opinion.
Why is that? Any of the critters you shot with a 22 ever try to kill you? Have you ever faced a human intent on killing you? There is a world of difference between shooting Bambi as he grazes vs a violent attacking felon.
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Old November 25, 2012, 02:21 PM   #35
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Of course, even though he talked about .22's, he did say that his "little friend is a 357".
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Old November 25, 2012, 02:45 PM   #36
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Quote:
Quote:
I would agree that a standard wadcutter out of an abbreviated barrel is a poor choice, but stating that it will"only" make the person angry is a bit of hyperbole.
Based on what experience? I have stated mine.
The word hyperbole means exaggeration.

To state that shooting someone with a .38 wadcutter will "only" make them mad or angry is just silly. As I stated, I agree with you that it is a poor choice. If I taunted an aggressor about his fat mother THAT would only make him angry at best or "only". There would be no other possible effect of the action. Your experience can be whatever it is, but to make a blanket statement about all other possible shootings with the round from here to judgement day based on some belief that your personal experiences will generalize to all others does not wash. Do you have some thought that no shootings with the round in question has ever stopped an attack or resulted in quick or immediate incapacitation? Again, it is a poor choice especially from a snubby. It will however punch a .357 hole in someone deep enough to hit vitals.

The one and only shooting with a .38 Special wadcutter in which I knew the shooter personally resulted in one dead home invader in New Mexico with one center punch in 1979. I suppose I could state with some truthfulness that in my experience the .38 wadcutter is a one shot stopper 100% of the time, but I think it would be somewhat of an over statement don't you agree?

Bullets do weird things. Certainly some are much more effective at incapacitating an attacker than others all other things being equal. None of them are to utterly ineffective that the only across the board result from a hit will be an elevated anger level.
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Old November 25, 2012, 04:14 PM   #37
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Very bad advice, unless you are attacked by sheets of paper. A soft lead slug traveling anywhere from 650-700 fps are only going to make someone angry.
I just checked my logbook....looking through my records for my 2" J-frame. The 148 gr wadcutters I shot in the J-frame, which were light loads intended only for bullseye shooting, ran 701 FPS. That is pretty close to your stated velocity.

Am I correct in my understanding that the people you referenced (inner city whatevers) were using light weight target hand loads for self defense?
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Old November 25, 2012, 04:18 PM   #38
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From Guns and Ammo Handguns web site article "Wicked Wadcutters" dated 9-24-2010
http://www.handgunsmag.com/2010/09/2...utters_200901/


From Buffalo Bore web site on their hard cast "Anti-Personnel" wad cutters:

"This load is designed to cause disabling terminal effect, combined with the penetration required to cause fast incapacitation on human sized targets from any angle. The big flat wad cutter nose crushes living tissue as it passes through, unlike mushroomed bullets that are slightly rounded on the nose and tend to slip and slide through living material. The crushing action of the flat nose keeps penetration straight and thus deep. The hard cast construction will not deform on flesh and bone at these velocities so the nose profile remains constant along with bullet path and terminal damage. Full wad cutter profiles in large calibers (like .45 and .44) hit like a truck and do massive permanent damage. Noted NYPD “stake out” officer and gun fighter Jim Cirillo used full wad cutters in his 38 SPL revolvers because they incapacitated his targets with certainty."

and for the Buffalo Bore hard cast 150 grain .38 wad cutter:

Item 20D utilizes a very hard cast 150gr. WAD CUTTER bullet. The bullet is made hard, so it won't deform or mushroom. It cuts/crushes a "cookie cutter", full diameter hole in human flesh just like it does on a paper target. It penetrates deeply (roughly 14 to 16 inches in human tissue) and its full diameter profile maximizes blood loss as it cuts and crushes (not slips or slides) its way through tissue. Although I've never been shot with a full profile wad cutter bullet, I must assume that the initial impact of that wide flat nosed bullet, is crushingly formidable. As a teenager, I took to the woods on a regular basis and killed many a critter with heavily loaded 38SPL wad cutters'. The effect of a full profile wad cutter on small game was obvious and amazing, compared to regular round nosed bullets. That flat nose, literally hammers living things. These bullets are hard and properly lubed and will NOT lead your barrel. Note my velocities from real world "over the counter" revolver s- NOT TEST BARRELS!

a. S&W mod. 60, 2 inch barrel - 868 fps (251 ft. lbs.)
b. S&W mod. 66, 2.5 inch barrel - 890 fps (264 ft. lbs.)
c. Ruger SP101, 3 inch barrel - 961 fps (308 ft. lbs.)
d. S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch barrel - 1005 fps (336 ft. lbs.)

I'm debating - believe Buffalo Bore or believe......
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Old November 25, 2012, 04:36 PM   #39
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From DocKGR

link:
With few exceptions, the vast majority of .38 Sp JHP's fail to expand when fired from 2" barrels in the 4 layer denim test. Many of the lighter JHP's demonstrate overexpansion and insufficient penetration in bare gel testing. Also, the harsher recoil of the +P loads in lightweight J-frames tends to minimize practice efforts and decrease accuracy for many officers. The 158 gr +P LSWCHP offers adequate penetration, however in a 2" revolver the 158gr +P LSWCHP does not reliably expand. If it fails to expand, it will produce less wound trauma than a WC. Target wadcutters offer good penetration, cut tissue efficiently, and have relatively mild recoil. With wadcutters harder alloys and sharper leading edges are the way to go. Wadcutters perform exactly the same in both bare and 4 layer denim covered gel when fired from a 2" J-frame.

And DocKGR quoting from Dr. Martin Fackler's article: The Full Wadcutter--An Extremely Effective Bullet Design", Wound Ballistics Review. 4(2):6-7, Fall 1999):

"As a surgeon by profession, I am impressed by bullets with a cutting action (eg. Winchester Talon and Remington Golden Saber). Cutting is many times more efficient at disrupting tissue than the crushing mechanism by which ordinary bullets produce the hole through which they penetrate. The secret to the increased efficiency of the full wadcutter bullet is the cutting action of its sharp circumferential leading edge. Actually, cutting is simply very localized crush; by decreasing the area over which a given force is spread, we can greatly increase the magnitude to the amount of force delivered per unit are--which is a fancy way of saying that sharp knives cut a lot better than dull ones. As a result, the calculation of forces on tissue during penetration underestimate the true effectiveness of the wadcutter bullet relative to other shapes."

Doc KGR goes on at the link to recommend several JHPs for use in snubbies but most are +Ps. The one standard pressure JHP that he recommends is standard pressure Hornady Critical Defense. I'd use either that or some sort of hard cast full wadcutter in my snubby if it wasn't rated for +P. A Keith style semiwadcutter would be a second choice.
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Old November 25, 2012, 06:55 PM   #40
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Carry what you want. I do not carry, nor "recommend" 38 specials or wadcutters.

I am neither a combat dentist nor a military surgeon or a physicist, I did not read it from a book or the internet. I am just an old cop that saw first hand. If I am not credible to you so what, don't listen to me listen to people who are in the business to make money from myth and legend.
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Old November 25, 2012, 07:43 PM   #41
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I see Dr. Fackler, who was the head of the Wound Ballistics Laboratory for the US Army's Medical Training Center, as a credible source.

Last edited by 2damnold4this; November 25, 2012 at 08:04 PM.
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Old November 25, 2012, 08:00 PM   #42
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Lost Creditability

Nanuck, you just lost more creds. I remember how small my m-14 felt in a morter attack on our base in Vietnam. Another thing came to mind. One day a convoy was being stalked by a tiger (that's a great big cat with black and yellow stripes) . The guy on top of the of the apc opened up with a 50 callber machine gun. This really poed (made him mad) the tiger. Ole tige attacked the APC and was finished by multiple rifle and pistol rpunds. So you're right too small of a defensive weapon can just make an assailant mad. This is probabbly why the Bradley fighting vehicle has a 20 mm.
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Old November 25, 2012, 09:17 PM   #43
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"...don't listen to me listen to people who are in the business to make money from myth and legend."

Really?
Let's see, Buffalo Bore or...
Dr. Fackler or...
Jim Cirillo or...

Tough call, I'll go with the aforementioned over ...
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Old November 25, 2012, 10:19 PM   #44
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I think you guys are being too hard on Nanuk (though it doesn't seem to bother him). He may have over-stated the uselessness of a .38 wadcutter but I wouldn't say he has lost credibility for stating his personal experience. If he has 25 years as a street cop (and I have no reason to doubt his word on that) then his experience is data worth considering, even though anecdotal. Much information about Caliber effectiveness is, always has been, and always will be anecdotal. It has always served me in many endeavors to read the books and then also listen to those with experience. The combination is golden.
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Old November 25, 2012, 11:11 PM   #45
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I agree, we should respect Nanuk not only as a member but also for his long service as an LEO. I don't discount his opinion and as your correctly point out, anecdotal evidence, but punching a bad guy's ticket with a wadcutter will for sure work. He disagrees and I don't agree with him. It is nothing personal for me and I mean no offense. I will always like max meplat over anything else. I like two holes, one in and one out.
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Old November 26, 2012, 04:13 AM   #46
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Good advice from all.
Yesterday I set out to locate some of the aforementioned ammo but alas couldn't.
I did however, get a box of Horinady Custom. 158gr Hollowpoints loaded with their XTP Hollowpoints bullet. Recoil is mild enough and preformance is tops from my Chief's short bbl!
I want to thank you all again for your help!
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Old November 26, 2012, 06:59 AM   #47
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Quote:
I agree, we should respect Nanuk not only as a member but also for his long service as an LEO.
Yep. It's just a disagreement, nothing more.
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Old November 26, 2012, 08:02 AM   #48
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Quote:
I would agree that a standard wadcutter out of an abbreviated barrel is a poor choice, but stating that it will"only" make the person angry is a bit of hyperbole.

The word hyperbole means exaggeration.
To state that shooting someone with a .38 wadcutter will "only" make them mad or angry is just silly. As I stated, I agree with you that it is a poor choice. If I taunted an aggressor about his fat mother THAT would only make him angry at best or "only". There would be no other possible effect of the action. Your experience can be whatever it is, but to make a blanket statement about all other possible shootings with the round from here to judgement day based on some belief that your personal experiences will generalize to all others does not wash. Do you have some thought that no shootings with the round in question has ever stopped an attack or resulted in quick or immediate incapacitation? Again, it is a poor choice especially from a snubby. It will however punch a .357 hole in someone deep enough to hit vitals.

The one and only shooting with a .38 Special wadcutter in which I knew the shooter personally resulted in one dead home invader in New Mexico with one center punch in 1979. I suppose I could state with some truthfulness that in my experience the .38 wadcutter is a one shot stopper 100% of the time, but I think it would be somewhat of an over statement don't you agree?

Bullets do weird things. Certainly some are much more effective at incapacitating an attacker than others all other things being equal. None of them are to utterly ineffective that the only across the board result from a hit will be an elevated anger level.
Ok, so I overstated the uselessness of the 38 wadcutter in my experience that is just my contempt for the round for use in self defense from a violent felon coming thru. I did not say that the wounds were not ultimately lethal for those that chose to not seek medical attention. Some people were less than impressed initially largely due to adrenaline and sought out medical attention later.

Quote:
Am I correct in my understanding that the people you referenced (inner city whatevers) were using light weight target hand loads for self defense?
That is a fact. The local pawn shop sold individual bullets for $2 each (in the 80's), that way the local thugs could top off.

Quote:
a. S&W mod. 60, 2 inch barrel - 868 fps (251 ft. lbs.)
b. S&W mod. 66, 2.5 inch barrel - 890 fps (264 ft. lbs.)
c. Ruger SP101, 3 inch barrel - 961 fps (308 ft. lbs.)
d. S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch barrel - 1005 fps (336 ft. lbs.)

I'm debating - believe Buffalo Bore or believe......
Jim Cirrillo’s “safe stop” was the same idea. I spoke with him at FLETC when he was an instructor there, and we did not agree about it then either. He used the WC because it was that or LRN. I used WC’s in my Marlin carbine and they worked VERY well on skunks, my guess is they were moving out around 1000 FPS, which is where I would like to see them from a handgun.

Quote:
Lost Creditability

Nanuck, you just lost more creds. I remember how small my m-14 felt in a morter attack on our base in Vietnam. Another thing came to mind. One day a convoy was being stalked by a tiger (that's a great big cat with black and yellow stripes) . The guy on top of the of the apc opened up with a 50 callber machine gun. This really poed (made him mad) the tiger. Ole tige attacked the APC and was finished by multiple rifle and pistol rpunds. So you're right too small of a defensive weapon can just make an assailant mad. This is probabbly why the Bradley fighting vehicle has a 20 mm.
One of my buddies was a Ranger in Vietnam and had a squad member eaten by a 900 lb tiger, Yes I know what they are. And the relevance to the discussion is what? Unless you are faced with something like this on an afternoon stroll.

http://www.americanhandgunner.com/li...0%94-for-real/

Every handgun is a compromise. What I have seen and experienced leads me to carry the most gun I can conceal and shoot well. That currently happens to be a Glock 31C in the cooler months and a Glock 27/33 in the warmer months. Using the weakest round in a marginal SD caliber, in a platform that almost defies accurate shot placement by all but the most adept sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. A snubbie is an expert’s gun; IMHO it does not belong in the hands of a novice.

What round works in one situation may not work in another, no two shootings are alike. If you are starting out with 200 or so FPE your margin for error or deviation is NIL. If you start out with 600-700 FPE you have a lot more to work with. Work requires energy. A 38 WC at 700 FPS is not cutting thru bone. I have seen my friend shot, it hit his pelvis and stopped. I have seen them bounce of ribs, break ribs and get stuck in the intercostal muscles, punch into the abdomen. A friend of mine shot a BG thru the heart with a 45 ACP gold dot, it punched a ¾” hole thru his heart, he was stone cold dead, and ran 3 blocks. Of all the gunshot wounds I have seen and treated (first aid) 38 special wounds were minor in comparison and a far cry from a hit by a 357 Magnum at 400-500 more FPS.
I love 357 magnum’s, it is just that my 3” model 13 is no longer in production, so replacing it would be difficult. My 640 PRO is my BUG. The Glock is smaller, lighter and carries 3 times the ammo and with Underwood GD’s I lose nothing in the power arena.
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Old November 26, 2012, 08:43 AM   #49
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Quote:
Using the weakest round in a marginal SD caliber, in a platform that almost defies accurate shot placement by all but the most adept sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. A snubbie is an expert’s gun; IMHO it does not belong in the hands of a novice.
"Marginal SD caliber"..."defies accurate shot placement by all but the most adept"...."A snubbie is an expert's gun".

As has already been mentioned there are several loads that take the 38Spl out of the so-called "marginal" category into serious self-defense territory even when shot from a 2" snubbie.

I doubt you would find this as interesting as your own experiences.

A long proven cartridge in an easily concealed, simple to operate and ultra-reliable platform that every novice I have introduced to the snubbie has been able to shoot accurately enough at common self-defense distances...well, I most certainly disagree with your notion that the "snubbie is an expert's gun".
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Old November 26, 2012, 01:32 PM   #50
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Interesting read^^^ thanks for posting the link.
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